[Newsbot]

Title: DND under fire for scoping out Dutch shipyard
Category: Military
Posted By: Hyack
Date: 2008-08-06 04:05:28
Canadian

[Blue_goose80]

"The current government policy states that vessels acquired for the government must be built in Canada, but Canadian industry officials are worried that some in the government want to change that."
It would be nice to see the money and all those jobs stay in Canada, boost the economy.

[ridenrain]

BC just went through this with a new ferry.
Shipbuilding is very expensive and almost always subsidized. If the Canadian government wanted us to stay in the ship building industry, they should have been prepared to pay for it.
The cost to start up and start building will be more than simply buying the ships from companies that already are making warships.

We don't make much of our military kit now so I don't see why we need to jump in with both feet on the most expensive items now.

[bootlegga]

ridenrain ridenrain:

BC just went through this with a new ferry.
Shipbuilding is very expensive and almost always subsidized. If the Canadian government wanted us to stay in the ship building industry, they should have been prepared to pay for it.
The cost to start up and start building will be more than simply buying the ships from companies that already are making warships.

We don't make much of our military kit now so I don't see why we need to jump in with both feet on the most expensive items now.

Wait a minute. You were the one who said we should buy C-17s because Boeing will spend a ton in Canada, yet now it's okay to give away more than $2 billion to the Dutch? Hmmm.....

I understand building a ferry or some other non-military ship abroad, but these ships will be a vital part of our fleet, and as such should be built here in Canada, not somewhere else. That way we have the skillset to maintain or refit these ships later on. Or do you think we should let the Dutch do that as well?

Why don't we just make it in China if money is the only issue here? Building WARSHIPS should be done in our own country, not parcelled out to the lowest bidder. If we are looking to save money, the Finns and South Koreans have big shipbuilding industries.

Ideally, the proper way to maintain our industry would be to build a new ship every couple of years, spreading out purchases. That way our shipyards would have a steady stream of business and it would be far cheaper for the CF, as the shipyards wouldn't have to hire people every decade when the big order comes in and then lay them all off when it's filled. Of course, with the rabid partisanship that grips our country right now, each party tries to one-up the other by cancelling the other party's projects, which just fucks up procurement.

[robmik43]

I don't know if we have enough skilled shipbuilders left
still alive in Canada from our 'glory days' of ship building....
you know, where the average shipbuilder worked 3 hours every
shift for 8 hours pay. They are still dredging tons of weld rod
from Collingwood harbor that was thrown over the side of hulls
for decades, back when the measure of a guy's efficiency was how
much 6011 rod he "went through" in a shift. The Steelworkers'
union year-round-work-to-rule in shipbuiding made the average
UAW-CAW worker look productive, and that is a very difficult thing
to have done.
The dogfuck school of Canadian shipbuilding had been imported from the
River Clyde work ethic [ which had destroyed Scottish shipbuilding also.]

[BartSimpson]

At the very least, Canadian components should be used in ships built in (as a mere suggestion) nearby Maine or New Hampshire shipyards. Employing NAFTA, it could also be argued to allow Canadian workers to work at those shipyards on Canadian projects.

[ridenrain]

bootlegga bootlegga:

ridenrain ridenrain:

BC just went through this with a new ferry.
Shipbuilding is very expensive and almost always subsidized. If the Canadian government wanted us to stay in the ship building industry, they should have been prepared to pay for it.
The cost to start up and start building will be more than simply buying the ships from companies that already are making warships.

We don't make much of our military kit now so I don't see why we need to jump in with both feet on the most expensive items now.

Wait a minute. You were the one who said we should buy C-17s because Boeing will spend a ton in Canada, yet now it's okay to give away more than $2 billion to the Dutch? Hmmm.....

I understand building a ferry or some other non-military ship abroad, but these ships will be a vital part of our fleet, and as such should be built here in Canada, not somewhere else. That way we have the skillset to maintain or refit these ships later on. Or do you think we should let the Dutch do that as well?

Why don't we just make it in China if money is the only issue here? Building WARSHIPS should be done in our own country, not parcelled out to the lowest bidder. If we are looking to save money, the Finns and South Koreans have big shipbuilding industries.

Ideally, the proper way to maintain our industry would be to build a new ship every couple of years, spreading out purchases. That way our shipyards would have a steady stream of business and it would be far cheaper for the CF, as the shipyards wouldn't have to hire people every decade when the big order comes in and then lay them all off when it's filled. Of course, with the rabid partisanship that grips our country right now, each party tries to one-up the other by cancelling the other party's projects, which just fucks up procurement.

You're being dumb on purpose here.
Canada already makes a lot of Boeings parts so we benefit from the C17 purchase. What you're suggesting is more like re-starting the Aero project to replace our CF18s.

I would love to see Canada make ships but that is one hell of a large industry and one that didn't survive the cutbacks of the 70s & 80s. Starting it up again for a couple ships is what the BC-NDP did for the fast cats and they were a huge loss. If we could take defence and stratigic industry out of the hands of the politicos, I'd be for it, but when it's just another political hot potato, the funding is just to fickle.

One thing to keep in mind here is all the expensive parts, the electronics, radars, fire controlls, etc, are done here in Canada. We're buying a hull and fitting it with our parts to our specifications.

[bootlegga]

ridenrain ridenrain:

bootlegga bootlegga:

ridenrain ridenrain:

BC just went through this with a new ferry.
Shipbuilding is very expensive and almost always subsidized. If the Canadian government wanted us to stay in the ship building industry, they should have been prepared to pay for it.
The cost to start up and start building will be more than simply buying the ships from companies that already are making warships.

We don't make much of our military kit now so I don't see why we need to jump in with both feet on the most expensive items now.

Wait a minute. You were the one who said we should buy C-17s because Boeing will spend a ton in Canada, yet now it's okay to give away more than $2 billion to the Dutch? Hmmm.....

I understand building a ferry or some other non-military ship abroad, but these ships will be a vital part of our fleet, and as such should be built here in Canada, not somewhere else. That way we have the skillset to maintain or refit these ships later on. Or do you think we should let the Dutch do that as well?

Why don't we just make it in China if money is the only issue here? Building WARSHIPS should be done in our own country, not parcelled out to the lowest bidder. If we are looking to save money, the Finns and South Koreans have big shipbuilding industries.

Ideally, the proper way to maintain our industry would be to build a new ship every couple of years, spreading out purchases. That way our shipyards would have a steady stream of business and it would be far cheaper for the CF, as the shipyards wouldn't have to hire people every decade when the big order comes in and then lay them all off when it's filled. Of course, with the rabid partisanship that grips our country right now, each party tries to one-up the other by cancelling the other party's projects, which just fucks up procurement.

You're being dumb on purpose here.
Canada already makes a lot of Boeings parts so we benefit from the C17 purchase. What you're suggesting is more like re-starting the Aero project to replace our CF18s.

I would love to see Canada make ships but that is one hell of a large industry and one that didn't survive the cutbacks of the 70s & 80s. Starting it up again for a couple ships is what the BC-NDP did for the fast cats and they were a huge loss. If we could take defence and stratigic industry out of the hands of the politicos, I'd be for it, but when it's just another political hot potato, the funding is just to fickle.

One thing to keep in mind here is all the expensive parts, the electronics, radars, fire controlls, etc, are done here in Canada. We're buying a hull and fitting it with our parts to our specifications.

Hmm, these guys seem to think we still have a shipbuilding industry...

http://www.shipbuilding.ca/home.shtml

Maybe you're the one being thick-headed...

[stokes]

The issue isnt that we dont want the ships built in Canada, the issue is that there is no one to build them, as the Navy frigate fleet is about enter mid-life re-fit and the proposal to build new frigatges and Destroyers coming online the ship building industry in Canada cannot meet the needs of the Navy....period....unless we take all of the unemployed auto workers out of Ontario and put them to work...these new ships will be built off shore because like it or not the Navy needs new ships...so stuff that in your pipe and smoke it!!

[ridenrain]

Brochures are not products.

This is what the Vancouver shipyards are building now:

http://www.vanship.com/


A quick search shows this sad fact also:

$1:

Canada's largest shipyard closes
KEVIN COX
Globe and Mail Update

June 27, 2003 at 6:04 PM EDT

Competition from subsidized shipbuilders around the world and a lack of orders at home has sunk Canada's largest shipyard.

Saint John Shipbuilding, which had been idle for three years as its owners, the Irving family lobbied the federal government for a national shipbuilding policy, was formally closed Friday.

The move will force 600 employees, many of whom participated in the $6.2- billion patrol frigate project for the Canadian Navy and were anxiously awaiting news of new orders, to look for other jobs. It also leaves Canada with only one shipyard — located in Levis, Quebec capable of building ships to replace the aging fleet of the Canadian Navy.

I think we both agree that Canada should be able to make it's own ships, aircraft and everything else but thats an expensive task. This article isn't about what's best for Canada but simply a politically driven back-hand with no realistic solutions.