[Nuggie77]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

$1:

The navy has refused to say what caused the Feb. 27 fire aboard Protecteur, which left the ship powerless and adrift off Hawaii.

What a load of crap. The Navy hasn't refused to say what caused the fire.

They've refused to speculate on what caused the fire like the media wants and won't give these dipshits any ammunition to slag the military till the Board of Inquiry is complete.

[BartSimpson]

bootlegga bootlegga:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Because:

1. There probably wasn't a Canadian firm capable of producing Teflon insulated wiring at the time and no one in the CF would even imagine buying it from the USA.

No, it was more likely knee jerk protectionism that says we have to buy most/all our stuff in Canada - you know just like the US does. If it had been deemed necessary, we would have made a company set up shop here (and subsidized it), bought it for an inflated price and then watched as they closed up shop a year or two after the contract ended.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

2. Governments tend to buy their stuff from the lowest bidder. And if the lowest bidder was going to use leftover wiring from WW1 then so be it as long as not one extra penny was diverted from social welfare and healthcare for an awful weapon.

You're off by a decade.

Until the 70s, Canada spent like a drunken sailor on defence, maintaining 12 squadrons of aircraft and a full mechanized brigade in Europe as well as a 60 ship navy that was well-trained and full of almost brand-new equipment. Canada spent tens of billions of dollars over 40 years to fulfill its NATO commitment.

It wasn't until Trudeau got into power that we let our military commitments slide.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

3. By the mid-1960's hardly any Canadians gave a damn about their navy so why bother spending any actual money on a decent ship?

Again, you're off by a decade.

In the mid-60s, we were buying SeaKings, building three AORs, four DDHs and a number of FFHs. We even had a small carrier until the end of the decade. We also pioneered flying big helos off small ships, so I would hardly say we didn't care.

If you're going to bash us, at least understand the history so you can do it properly!

+5 for the education!

[Jabberwalker]

Trudeau and his merry band of assholes scrapped out Bonaventure (our last carrier) just weeks after she went though a major refit costing mega millions. This set the standard for subsequent Liberal governments to cancel much needed Armed Forces procurements after spending a king's ransom on them, first. They used to make political Brownie points that way with an idiotic underclass in this country that used to keep them in power, no matter what.

[Gunnair]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Trudeau and his merry band of assholes scrapped out Bonaventure (our last carrier) just weeks after she went though a major refit costing mega millions. This set the standard for subsequent Liberal governments to cancel much needed Armed Forces procurements after spending a king's ransom on them, first. They used to make political Brownie points that way with an idiotic underclass in this country that used to keep them in power, no matter what.

Yep.

Mind, who cancelled the Arrow?

[BartSimpson]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Yep.

Mind, who cancelled the Arrow?

Absolutely no offense intended as I say this, but it amazes me just how big a part of the Canadian psyche and identity is that airplane from almost fifty years ago.

It amazes me to be at tea in Victoria and hear people talk about this as if the whole thing just happened last year or something.

Frankly, I think you folks need to develop a fighter if only to make yourselves get over the whole mess with the Arrow. It'd be worth it.

Hell, if Russia can drop $50bn on the Olympics then Canada can surely come up with a similar amount to get a fighter into production.

[Jabberwalker]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Trudeau and his merry band of assholes scrapped out Bonaventure (our last carrier) just weeks after she went though a major refit costing mega millions. This set the standard for subsequent Liberal governments to cancel much needed Armed Forces procurements after spending a king's ransom on them, first. They used to make political Brownie points that way with an idiotic underclass in this country that used to keep them in power, no matter what.

Yep.

Mind, who cancelled the Arrow?

My mother worked very hard to get Dief elected.

My Wife's grandfather worked on the Arrow ... and then on Mercury, Gemini and Apollo down in Florida.



We don't talk about such things, anymore.

[PluggyRug]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Our unit used to put up our own money to buy upgraded parts and electrical for our LAV's. The parts would be purchased at local auto parts stores and then plenty of the wiring would have to be wrapped with conduit or electrical tape to stop it wearing out by just rubbing on things while the LAV was moving.

It's amazing how a $2 part can cut into profits, isn't it!

I did a couple summers at the Alberta Research council, and they had us do some mil-spec stuff that required all the wiring in the units were tied together and to posts using waxed thread. That's the treatment things like the Apollo and Shuttle missions got.

But I'll bet that to this day, that wiring is still 100% functional even if it's been bouncing up and down on gravel roads for decades.

I did a server rack that way once, with custom length cables and wrapped with wax thread. Looked beautiful, but I'll bet the guy who had to take it apart wanted me dead.

.....back in the 70's when I worked in telecommunications all the (then) new telephone exchanges were of the "Crossbar" type. All wiring cable-forms, cables etc had to tied down with waxed string.

[Winnipegger]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Absolutely no offense intended as I say this, but it amazes me just how big a part of the Canadian psyche and identity is that airplane from almost fifty years ago.
...
Frankly, I think you folks need to develop a fighter if only to make yourselves get over the whole mess with the Arrow. It'd be worth it.

We had the best in the world of something. The Arrow was designed to supercruise at mach 1.5, max speed with after burner mach 2.5. It used fly-by-wire. The first American fighter with fly-by-wire was the F-16 built in the 1970s. And the only fighters in the world capable of supercruise at mach 1.5 today are the F-22 and Eurofighter Typhoon. They're 21st century planes. And the Arrow had computers for radar on-board, while American fighters at the time had computers at the air base. Their radar didn't work once they were out of radio range. Canada's territory is vast, we can't rely on fighters restricted to stay near a base. It couldn't turn as tight as a modern fighter jet, but it was best in the world at the time.

We need something, but not an obsolete relic. The Arrow as bleeding edge technology at the time. We need something that is that new, that radical, for our current time. And something that's actually useful. The Arrow was designed as a high speed interceptor to take out a Russian Bear bomber. We aren't threatened by Bear bombers today. In fact, the Tu-160 "White Swan" (NATO name Blackjack) and Tu-22m Backfire bombers are much newer, faster. But there isn't an immanent threat of Russian attack. So we need something current.

We could develop an extreme combat drone: quantum entanglement communication, nuclear jet engine using Americium-242m instead of Uranium, able to carry two HARM missiles, and a solid-state laser to take out missiles or enemy aircraft. Capable of turns so tight that any pilot would black out. And hypersonic, able to intercept a Tu-160 or Tu-22m, get to a combat zone fast, yet loiter for months.

But that's combat. Canada today wants to focus on peace. As Jabberwalker said, there was also pride to participating in the space program. I have suggested a Canadian-led international mission to send humans to Mars. Using Russia's big rocket. But boosters for that rocket are manufactured in east Ukraine. Fuel tanks for the big core stage are manufactured in Russia, but transported to the launch site with the Antonov An-225, operated out of Kyiv. Russia would have to knock off its invasion of Ukraine.

[Regina]

Yet the Arrow had no ejection seat.................

[Gunnair]

Regina Regina:

Yet the Arrow had no ejection seat.................

Deif the Chief did though...at least for the project.

[Regina]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Regina Regina:

Yet the Arrow had no ejection seat.................

Deif the Chief did though...at least for the project.

Yes and no weapons. Great fighter.........

[Jabberwalker]

Well, the father of a friend of mine, who worked on the Arrow was one of the designers of the analog computers that fed information to the Velvet Glove missiles that were to be fitted on the Arrow. They eventually switched to the Sparrow (still in use in many forms) for the CF-100 and CF-105.

http://va3kgb.ve3kbr.com/cf105/weapons.htm

[BartSimpson]

Regina Regina:

Yet the Arrow had no ejection seat.................

Of course, this is because the plane was so full of win that it didn't need one.

[Jabberwalker]

Avro Arrow Ejection Seat ... they found it

http://www.ctvnews.ca/avro-arrow-myster ... y-1.741854

[bootlegga]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Trudeau and his merry band of assholes scrapped out Bonaventure (our last carrier) just weeks after she went though a major refit costing mega millions. This set the standard for subsequent Liberal governments to cancel much needed Armed Forces procurements after spending a king's ransom on them, first. They used to make political Brownie points that way with an idiotic underclass in this country that used to keep them in power, no matter what.

I'll certainly agree Trudeau wasn't a friend of the military, but he gave Canadians what they wanted, so in theory, the blame really lands on us (well those of voting age in the 70s) not on peacenik politicians.

And besides, the Conservatives of that era weren't much better. Mulroney promised all sorts of things like new tanks, nuclear subs, a massive ice breaker, a dozen new and bigger frigates then reneged when presented with the bill.