[Xort]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

Well then, how about we dig up and burn every Military Cememtary in Europe so the land can given to the poor people and turned into farmland or maybe they should scrap the Arizona and turn it into Toyota's cause god knows it's nothing but a hazard to navigation sitting in the middle of the Channel like that and to be honest, it actually makes berthing at the Sub base harder than it should be.

Hell, why stop there. We should fucking dig up every grave in North America and turn the land into malls and parking lots because they serve the people better than some stuffy old graves. Oh wait, there's a law that prohibits the desecration of civilian graves so that wouldn't work but what the hell. When it's 1353 Sailors buried under a couple of hundred feet of water and a couple of thousand miles from their home port then it just doesn't matter, does it?

But here's a novel idea. Why don't you do me a favour and give those two boys from India a shout when you're laid to rest so they could drop by and have a BBQ with you.

"A shrine or memorial market would be a different thing to steal..."

Idiot.

We don't see burned out blown up tanks with the crews left to be picked apart by animals all over Europe. Thought of being some holy shrine so revered that people can not even look at them.

That the navies of the world have been using the oceans as their trash bins for centuries doesn't make it a crime to have people go and sift through the trash and making something useful out of it again.

We didn't turn every battlefield of WWI or WWII into a protected space, farmers in France and Germany were happy enough to "desecrate" the battlefields turning them back into productive farm land.

Again, idiot.

[Freakinoldguy]

Xort Xort:

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

Well then, how about we dig up and burn every Military Cememtary in Europe so the land can given to the poor people and turned into farmland or maybe they should scrap the Arizona and turn it into Toyota's cause god knows it's nothing but a hazard to navigation sitting in the middle of the Channel like that and to be honest, it actually makes berthing at the Sub base harder than it should be.

Hell, why stop there. We should fucking dig up every grave in North America and turn the land into malls and parking lots because they serve the people better than some stuffy old graves. Oh wait, there's a law that prohibits the desecration of civilian graves so that wouldn't work but what the hell. When it's 1353 Sailors buried under a couple of hundred feet of water and a couple of thousand miles from their home port then it just doesn't matter, does it?

But here's a novel idea. Why don't you do me a favour and give those two boys from India a shout when you're laid to rest so they could drop by and have a BBQ with you.

"A shrine or memorial market would be a different thing to steal..."

Idiot.

I'm the idiot.

Did you even read your own post troll or did you just come up with some politically correct crap that suited your current agenda. And for the record I wouldn't expect you to understand real military service and sacrifice like those sailors gave even if it bit you in the ass.

$1:

The wreck lies upside down in 223 feet (68 m) of water at

3°33′36″N 104°28′42″E. A Royal Navy White Ensign attached to a line on a buoy tied to a propeller shaft is periodically renewed. The wreck site was designated a 'Protected Place' in 2001 under the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986, just prior to the 60th anniversary of her sinking. The ship's bell was manually raised in 2002 by British technical divers with the permission of the Ministry of Defence and blessing of the Force Z Survivors Association. It was restored, then presented for permanent display by First Sea Lord and Chief of Naval Staff, Admiral Sir Alan West, to the Merseyside Maritime Museum in Liverpool. It is currently traditional for every passing Royal Navy ship to perform a remembrance service over the site of the wrecks.[35]

[Xort]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

I'm the idiot.

Correct, if you missed it I said that a dedicated memorial or shrine should be protected, you went off on some tangent about digging up cemeteries and turning them into malls.

$1:

Did you even read your own post troll or did you just come up with some politically correct crap that suited your current agenda. And for the record I wouldn't expect you to understand real military service and sacrifice like those sailors gave even if it bit you in the ass.

I did read your original post, why did you change it?

[Freakinoldguy]

Xort Xort:

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

I'm the idiot.

Correct, if you missed it I said that a dedicated memorial or shrine should be protected, you went off on some tangent about digging up cemeteries and turning them into malls.

$1:

Did you even read your own post troll or did you just come up with some politically correct crap that suited your current agenda. And for the record I wouldn't expect you to understand real military service and sacrifice like those sailors gave even if it bit you in the ass.

I did read your original post, why did you change it?

I wanted to make sure you knew that it was considered a military grave and the stripping of the metal by those poor Malay fishermen with their stoneage diving equipment, explosives, and large floating cranes was still illegal and a desecration even if you thought that doing it was a great way to recycle and would help the local Kampongs become self sufficient.

If people don't consider a war grave a sacrosanct dedicated shrine because they're under water and under attack by experienced salvagers then it should come as no surprise when someone suggests that all Military graves be removed from the battlefields because,really all we need is a stone monument to pay tribute to the dead.

As for the crews from the tanks, and planes destroyed during the wars, who do you think Graves Registration put in all those graves? It wasn't just infantry but you can be assured that they didn't visit the sites of ship sinking's and remove the bodies for obvious reasons. So those ships are their graves and monuments and that's why every sunken ship,not just military ones should be considered a grave site and off limits to both metal scavengers and rich underwater explorers or movie makers with more money than human decency.

[Xort]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

I wanted to make sure you knew that it was considered a military grave and the stripping of the metal by those poor Malay fishermen with their stoneage diving equipment, explosives, and large floating cranes was still illegal and a desecration even if you thought that doing it was a great way to recycle and would help the local Kampongs become self sufficient.

Illegal, how? The water the ship is sitting are not UK waters.

Also the marker with the flag is the memorial, and I would be against people stealing that. The ship it's fixed to is just trash the UK left on the ocean floor.

The cynical person inside me says UK they made up the idea of memorial sunk ships when it was practical to recover ships well after the war in order to save on the cost of recovering the ships where technically possible.

$1:

If people don't consider a war grave a sacrosanct dedicated shrine because they're under water and under attack by experienced salvagers then it should come as no surprise when someone suggests that all Military graves be removed from the battlefields because,really all we need is a stone monument to pay tribute to the dead.

I think a memorial is a fair remembrance and a practical solution.

$1:

As for the crews from the tanks, and planes destroyed during the wars, who do you think Graves Registration put in all those graves? It wasn't just infantry but you can be assured that they didn't visit the sites of ship sinking's and remove the bodies for obvious reasons. So those ships are their graves and monuments and that's why every sunken ship,not just military ones should be considered a grave site and off limits to both metal scavengers and rich underwater explorers or movie makers with more money than human decency.

So if we sent people to go take the bones somewhere then it would be just like all the tanks blown up all over Europe? Valuable metal and obstacles to the living that need to be moved?

Well I don't agree with your opinion and I dislike the personal attacks you throw my way because I don't agree with you.

I think enough people have been killed after a group of people claimed some spot of land is holy and got mad when other people didn't accept it or care about it.

[BartSimpson]

I'm not posting this to support or attack anyone's feelings but just noting that the UK has no problem with salvaging the German fleet at Scapa Flow. It is noteworthy because during the scuttling of the German fleet a number of German officers and crew perished and went down with their ships during the British attempt to stop and punish the scuttling.

http://www.scapaflow.co/index.php/histo ... rman_fleet

My point is that if the UK is going to declare a wreck a war grave then they need to respect the German wrecks in their own jurisdiction.

[Thanos]

The British government should also pay the bills for some permanent security at these sites if this is so important to them, instead of relying on the politeness of the locals in the area.

[Freakinoldguy]

Xort Xort:

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

I wanted to make sure you knew that it was considered a military grave and the stripping of the metal by those poor Malay fishermen with their stoneage diving equipment, explosives, and large floating cranes was still illegal and a desecration even if you thought that doing it was a great way to recycle and would help the local Kampongs become self sufficient.

Illegal, how? The water the ship is sitting are not UK waters.

Also the marker with the flag is the memorial, and I would be against people stealing that. The ship it's fixed to is just trash the UK left on the ocean floor.

The cynical person inside me says UK they made up the idea of memorial sunk ships when it was practical to recover ships well after the war in order to save on the cost of recovering the ships where technically possible.

$1:

If people don't consider a war grave a sacrosanct dedicated shrine because they're under water and under attack by experienced salvagers then it should come as no surprise when someone suggests that all Military graves be removed from the battlefields because,really all we need is a stone monument to pay tribute to the dead.

I think a memorial is a fair remembrance and a practical solution.

$1:

As for the crews from the tanks, and planes destroyed during the wars, who do you think Graves Registration put in all those graves? It wasn't just infantry but you can be assured that they didn't visit the sites of ship sinking's and remove the bodies for obvious reasons. So those ships are their graves and monuments and that's why every sunken ship,not just military ones should be considered a grave site and off limits to both metal scavengers and rich underwater explorers or movie makers with more money than human decency.

So if we sent people to go take the bones somewhere then it would be just like all the tanks blown up all over Europe? Valuable metal and obstacles to the living that need to be moved?

Well I don't agree with your opinion and I dislike the personal attacks you throw my way because I don't agree with you.

I think enough people have been killed after a group of people claimed some spot of land is holy and got mad when other people didn't accept it or care about it.

Personal attacks. Your the one that called me an "idiot" for pointing out the flaws in your argument.

[Freakinoldguy]

Thanos Thanos:

The British government should also pay the bills for some permanent security at these sites if this is so important to them, instead of relying on the politeness of the locals in the area.

Yes, and that's what I wrote in another post. If they want to pay respect the those sailors there should at least be some security there so this crap doesn't happen. It's simple naming it a war grave but for the British Gov't it would appear that it's another thing if it costs them money which, is extremely hypocritical.

But nobody's going to change my mind that sunken ships with loss of life should all be considered grave sites and left the fuck alone out of respect for the people who died manning them. If what was happening to those ships now were to happen on shore there'd be a hue and cry about grave robbing which is exactly what it is. It doesn't matter if you dig someone up to rob them or steal the underwater casket they're buried in.


And sorry Bart but you're comparing apples to oranges with the "Well the British did it". The Germans scuttled their own fleet with 9 killed and 16 injured so it's not like the ships were war grave sites because in essence the Germans killed their own Sailors when Reuters decided to scuttle the fleet after learning of the terms for the Treaty of Versailles.

[Xort]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

Personal attacks. Your the one that called me an "idiot" for pointing out the flaws in your argument.

I called you an idiot because I directly said a memorial would be different and you started with your strawman of making memorials into shopping malls.

What word would you have used to describe your reply? Well thought out and reasonable?

$1:

And sorry Bart but you're comparing apples to oranges with the "Well the British did it". The Germans scuttled their own fleet with 9 killed and 16 injured so it's not like the ships were war grave sites because in essence the Germans killed their own Sailors when Reuters decided to scuttle the fleet after learning of the terms for the Treaty of Versailles.

It's the exact same thing, and you know it.

Do what I say not what I do.

[Freakinoldguy]

Xort Xort:

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

Personal attacks. Your the one that called me an "idiot" for pointing out the flaws in your argument.

I called you an idiot because I directly said a memorial would be different and you started with your strawman of making memorials into shopping malls.

What word would you have used to describe your reply? Well thought out and reasonable?

$1:

And sorry Bart but you're comparing apples to oranges with the "Well the British did it". The Germans scuttled their own fleet with 9 killed and 16 injured so it's not like the ships were war grave sites because in essence the Germans killed their own Sailors when Reuters decided to scuttle the fleet after learning of the terms for the Treaty of Versailles.

It's the exact same thing, and you know it.

Do what I say not what I do.

$1:

Do what I say not what I do

Read up on Scapa Flow and then get back to me if you think my facts are wrong. There were 74 German ships there when they scuttled their own ships after an Armistice so they weren't sunk by hostilities but by German Sabotage. So it is apples to oranges. The Prince of Wales and Repulse were sunk by an enemy combatant whereas the 52 German ships at Scapa Flow were sunk by the Germans themselves after they'd agreed to an cease fire and were about to sign an Armistice..


As for my reply. It may not have been the most well thought out and completely reasonable but it was light years ahead of your disrespectful disregard for what is a protected grave site.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Xort Xort:

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

I wanted to make sure you knew that it was considered a military grave and the stripping of the metal by those poor Malay fishermen with their stoneage diving equipment, explosives, and large floating cranes was still illegal and a desecration even if you thought that doing it was a great way to recycle and would help the local Kampongs become self sufficient.

Illegal, how? The water the ship is sitting are not UK waters.

Also the marker with the flag is the memorial, and I would be against people stealing that. The ship it's fixed to is just trash the UK left on the ocean floor.

JUST trash? Well guess what Mr. Uppity-Fuck, that trash holds the remains of Royal Navy personnel. It is for all intents and purposes, a military grave.

Let's go dig up Xorty's grandparents. Their coffins are just junk buried in the ground. We can recycle the wood to build stuff.

[Xort]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

JUST trash? Well guess what Mr. Uppity-Fuck, that trash holds the remains of Royal Navy personnel. It is for all intents and purposes, a military grave.

For no purposes are they graves. The ships are just garbage left on the ocean floor. The UK couldn't even work up the will or the cash to return the bodies when recoverable to the UK for a real proper burial.

I can understand leaving ships and bodies when it wasn't technically viable to recover them.

But what was done is equal to leaving bodies on a battlefield to get eaten by animals and then getting upset when the farmer wanted his field back.

The floating marker that was placed is a great solution and one I support. Making it illegal for anyone to even look at the sunk ships is insane.

$1:

Let's go dig up Xorty's grandparents. Their coffins are just junk buried in the ground. We can recycle the wood to build stuff.

Yet another idiot.

[Regina]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

I'm not posting this to support or attack anyone's feelings but just noting that the UK has no problem with salvaging the German fleet at Scapa Flow. It is noteworthy because during the scuttling of the German fleet a number of German officers and crew perished and went down with their ships during the British attempt to stop and punish the scuttling.

http://www.scapaflow.co/index.php/histo ... rman_fleet

My point is that if the UK is going to declare a wreck a war grave then they need to respect the German wrecks in their own jurisdiction.

Although they were removed and the steel re-used, those were navigational hazards and needed to be removed. They were also scuttled and not sunk.

[BartSimpson]

Regina Regina:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

I'm not posting this to support or attack anyone's feelings but just noting that the UK has no problem with salvaging the German fleet at Scapa Flow. It is noteworthy because during the scuttling of the German fleet a number of German officers and crew perished and went down with their ships during the British attempt to stop and punish the scuttling.

http://www.scapaflow.co/index.php/histo ... rman_fleet

My point is that if the UK is going to declare a wreck a war grave then they need to respect the German wrecks in their own jurisdiction.

Although they were removed and the steel re-used, those were navigational hazards and needed to be removed. They were also scuttled and not sunk.

True, they were scuttled. But in many cases they were fired upon by Royal Navy ships during the course of the scuttling and many German officers and enlisted went down with them. They are war graves due to this act of defiance being the last action of the Imperial German Navy.