[Lemmy]

Thanos Thanos:

You're the ones that are going to be living in a jurisdiction where someday the home electrical and heating costs are going to be more than what a monthly mortgage payment is.

Our rates are only higher than elsewhere in Canada because we subsidize less than you. You're just passing more of your bill onto your children.

Thanos Thanos:

Tell me how smart and ingenious it all turns out to be when the combination of utility costs and mortgage are going to price anyone under the age of 60 from being able to own their own house. You guys couldn't have done a better job at all of murdering both the golden goose and the average citizen's dream.

Solutions?

[N_Fiddledog]

Lemmy Lemmy:

Solutions?

You could try voting Libertarian.

Ontario Libertarian Party's energy plan

[Freakinoldguy]

Lemmy Lemmy:

Our rates are only higher than elsewhere in Canada because we subsidize less than you. You're just passing more of your bill onto your children.

Solutions?

Stop spending money on inefficient, impractical technology that has proven to be a failure just because someone tells you it's green.

As for subsidizing hydro. I think you have it backwards. I can't speak for all of Canada but for decades the BC Government has been taking a dividend from all that money people paid for their Hydro which, has caused our rates to rise exponentially because the money that should have been used for upgrades was put into General Revenues.

[Thanos]

Lemmy Lemmy:

Thanos Thanos:

You're the ones that are going to be living in a jurisdiction where someday the home electrical and heating costs are going to be more than what a monthly mortgage payment is.

Our rates are only higher than elsewhere in Canada because we subsidize less than you. You're just passing more of your bill onto your children.

Thanos Thanos:

Tell me how smart and ingenious it all turns out to be when the combination of utility costs and mortgage are going to price anyone under the age of 60 from being able to own their own house. You guys couldn't have done a better job at all of murdering both the golden goose and the average citizen's dream.

Solutions?

Not obligated to offer any. The inevitable market correction where all these inflated prices everywhere finally collapse will probably trigger a depression, not a mere recession. It's not wanted but it's probably needed, unless some think-tank somewhere has managed to convince all the masters of the universe out there that pricing a majority of a nation's population out of ever being home owners is somehow a neat-o idea. Just like junk bonds, tech scams, and crooked mortgages this particular ongoing scam has to stop somewhere someday.

Ontario's challenge should be on how to rescue itself, and the rest of the country by default, from being the next Venezuela that Wynne's merrily turning the place into. Don't know how but you simply cannot go on this way and it doesn't take an Austerity Hero to see it.

[herbie]

Jesus here's the same chorus again.
Bitching about a building code proposal for 15 years from now? If it costs $1000 a month to heat your home with electric I'd start by putting a roof on it!
What if the power goes out? Well you're fucked because a gas or oil furnace won't work either. Nor will a pellet stove feed the pellets. Coal? We used to drop a chunk in our cabin's stove overnight and add more wood in the morning. FORTY YEARS AGO. You can't even buy a bag of coal today.
Who gives shit anyway, it doesn't affect you now. And your kids aren't gonna buy any houses in Toronto/Vancouver it'll be three billion dollars for a teardown by 2030.

[Thanos]

Try thirty billion. By then three billion won't even be enough to grease the already slippery palms that are going to be held out all over the place for such an idiotic project. Christ, it's got the makings of Detroit's "renewal" by OCP in the Robocop movies written all over it.

[2Cdo]

The sad part is that these fucking crooks will keep getting elected and will make this a reality. Then Ontariowe will look like Venezuela but without the warm tropical weather year round.

Hurray Liberals!

[BeaverFever]

Thanos Thanos:

You're the ones that are going to be living in a jurisdiction where someday the home electrical and heating costs are going to be more than what a monthly mortgage payment is. Tell me how smart and ingenious it all turns out to be when the combination of utility costs and mortgage are going to price anyone under the age of 60 from being able to own their own house. You guys couldn't have done a better job at all of murdering both the golden goose and the average citizen's dream.

1) First recognize that this is a plan for the distant future and long after the lifespan of this government and most of the people currently in it. Nobody needs to react as if these rules are happening tomorrow or wver

2) The rule applies to homes built on or after the year 2030. I'll certainly live long after that but there's no reason to believe that I would ever have to move into a house built after that date.

3) There's no way anyone can speculate on what the price of energy will be that far in the future or assume that prices won't fall. I mean just ask Albertans:

[Thanos]

1) What happened to the crude price was done deliberately by the Saudis as economic warfare, there's nothing "natural" at all in market terms that caused it.

2) Eliminate oil, gas, and nuclear from electrical generation/home heating and you deliberately cause a price spike from hydro and whatever renewables you're using. Not to mention that the infrastructure that has to be built for it and maintained equals higher fees as well that last for decades (if not forever).

It's just market rigging and rigging equals permanently high price. Maybe today's infants in Ontario will see lower electrical prices by the time they hit forty but no one older than them right now ever will.

[BeaverFever]

I don't see where it says we'll eliminate nuclear.

And the point about energy prices is just you can't predict thrm. Doesn't matter if oil fell because of Saudi shenanigans. Did you predict those shenanigans? Will you predict the next shenanigans? Do you know what anyone province's energy prices will be in 2030 and onwards?

[Thanos]

Eliminate the Wynne-factor shenanigans and Ontario could probably cut it's power costs by at least a third for the next twenty-odd years.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

I don't see where it says we'll eliminate nuclear.

And the point about energy prices is just you can't predict thrm. Doesn't matter if oil fell because of Saudi shenanigans. Did you predict those shenanigans? Will you predict the next shenanigans? Do you know what anyone province's energy prices will be in 2030 and onwards?

The point about energy prices is, when you have something like electricity that's in constant high demand, there's no need to lower the price, especially now that the RELIABLE part of Hydro One is in private hands with shareholders who will demand increasingly higher returns.

You can cut fossil fuels from the system. It'll be painful for awhile but the world can survive without them. Surviving without electricity these days would be tantamount to regressing back 150 years.

Remember back in the days when supply and demand was the norm? High volume sales generally meant lower prices. But those days are gone. Now, it's gouge people for as much as they're willing to spend. And based on the rampant consumerism that's been prevalent for years now, manufacturers have zero incentive to lower their prices.
Now, take a commodity or service that is essential in today's modern world and combine it with the above mentality and I don't see hydro rates in Ontario ever stagnating, let alone dropping.

They keep saying they want to leave a better world for our children, a noble goal to be sure, but what good is a "better world" if our kids or grandkids can't afford to live in it?

Like I said before, if the LPO was truly serious about reducing GHG emissions, they'd have encouraged much more R&D of wind and solar for the home and business owner. But the LPO doesn't want that. They want to "save the world" AND still be able to dip into our pockets with monthly connection and delivery fees, plus the taxes on hydro used from the grid.

Notice how they plan to "encourage" home owners to retrofit from natgas to electric? Notice how they're not encouraging anyone to get as close to 100% self-generating as they can?
Ontario had the opportunity to jump on board with cheaper, more efficient and more durable solar power units for homes and small businesses about 12-13 years ago when McGuinty was Premier. They weren't the least bit interested, on any level. Apparently, they still aren't.

Until Shit-For-Brains pulls her head out of her ass, she's just going to continue making Ontario a less and less attractive place to invest.

Ontario could be doing things to help reduce GHGs AND make Ontario an attractive place to invest. I'm pretty sure I've mentioned it before but the technology does exist to "crack" CO2 into more base compounds and elements. All of which have a practical use. Even better, there's two different methods that produce different results.
And despite being a rather energy intensive process, with Ontario's bragged about 99.7% emission-free power generation, it's the perfect location for that type of industry. Which would also mean less power being dumped or wasted by paying someone to take the constant excess generation off our hands. THAT could possibly result in a rate reduction since we are paying for the wasted generation as well.

[Lemmy]

Thanos Thanos:

Eliminate the Wynne-factor shenanigans and Ontario could probably cut it's power costs by at least a third for the next twenty-odd years.

A third? That's a big number. How'd you arrive at it?

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

The point about energy prices is, when you have something like electricity that's in constant high demand, there's no need to lower the price, especially now that the RELIABLE part of Hydro One is in private hands with shareholders who will demand increasingly higher returns.

You can't change demand with a wave of the wand. We already pay WAY below market rate. How much of your bill would you have the government subsidize? 100%?

PA9 PA9:

Remember back in the days when supply and demand was the norm? High volume sales generally meant lower prices. But those days are gone. Now, it's gouge people for as much as they're willing to spend. And based on the rampant consumerism that's been prevalent for years now, manufacturers have zero incentive to lower their prices.
Now, take a commodity or service that is essential in today's modern world and combine it with the above mentality and I don't see hydro rates in Ontario ever stagnating, let alone dropping.

How is it "gouging" when the government is subsidizing a third of your usage?

PA9 PA9:

Like I said before, if the LPO was truly serious about reducing GHG emissions, they'd have encouraged much more R&D of wind and solar for the home and business owner. But the LPO doesn't want that. They want to "save the world" AND still be able to dip into our pockets with monthly connection and delivery fees, plus the taxes on hydro used from the grid.

Notice how they plan to "encourage" home owners to retrofit from natgas to electric? Notice how they're not encouraging anyone to get as close to 100% self-generating as they can?
Ontario had the opportunity to jump on board with cheaper, more efficient and more durable solar power units for homes and small businesses about 12-13 years ago when McGuinty was Premier. They weren't the least bit interested, on any level. Apparently, they still aren't.

Home generation is definitely something that is very interesting. But it's prohibitively expensive, in capital terms, for all but the most wealthy.

PA9 PA9:

Until Shit-For-Brains pulls her head out of her ass, she's just going to continue making Ontario a less and less attractive place to invest.

And yet businesses are starting up in Ontario. Your theory, while sound, is not supported by evidence. But again, what should we do? Subsidize more? 100%?

PA9 PA9:

Ontario could be doing things to help reduce GHGs AND make Ontario an attractive place to invest. I'm pretty sure I've mentioned it before but the technology does exist to "crack" CO2 into more base compounds and elements. All of which have a practical use. Even better, there's two different methods that produce different results.
And despite being a rather energy intensive process, with Ontario's bragged about 99.7% emission-free power generation, it's the perfect location for that type of industry. Which would also mean less power being dumped or wasted by paying someone to take the constant excess generation off our hands. THAT could possibly result in a rate reduction since we are paying for the wasted generation as well.

Myth. We make money on what we "give" away. In 2010, we exported $300M in electricity. We gave away $6M...net, we were up $294M. That's what happens in a multijurisdictional grid. It's just the way it is. But make no mistake, we do not pay people, in sum, to take our power.

$1:

“According to the Independent Electricity System Operator (IESO), Ontario’s consumers benefit from (those) electricity exports, they do not subsidize them. In fact, exports reduced costs for Ontarians by approximately $300 million in 2013, according to the IESO.”

Since 2006, Ontario’s net revenue from electricity exports has been over $2 billion. These include exports to all the neighbouring jurisdictions in Canada and the USA.

[Thanos]

Lemmy Lemmy:

Thanos Thanos:

Eliminate the Wynne-factor shenanigans and Ontario could probably cut it's power costs by at least a third for the next twenty-odd years.

A third? That's a big number. How'd you arrive at it?

Just a guess. You folks seem to be well ahead of the curve on cost-of-living increases and, aside from more subsidies to select voting blocs, the Liberals don't seem too concerned on the effect it has on the average taxpayer. Or about the way they've apparently managed to make practically everything a quarter/a third/a half more expensive over the last decade. Once again, how much longer can it go on with these big dreams of their when salaries for non-public sector workers aren't keeping up with inflating costs caused by their policies?

[Tyler_1]

ooops.