[2Cdo]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

$1:

He's just parroting what party headquarters told him to say. Repeat a lie often enough, and all that.

Actually my "headquarters" were definitely on the anti-regulation side which is why I know more on this topic than most.

Sorry but you're firmly in the "Libs can never do any wrong, and if something is wrong it's someone else's fault" camp.

Pretending you're not, is just dishonest and makes you look like a slightly less insane version of andy.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Regina Regina:

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

No you're way off

The market for private energy contacts did not exist under law. Full stop. Mike Harris passed a law making it legal. Full stop.

Wanna know what the market model was?

Ever heard of Enron?

As for the Liberals, they've legislated in this sector before. Of course there are big companies with big money invested so there are consultations, lobbying etc. but it's been a target of this government for a long time.

You have no idea what you are talking about...........full stop.

Geez, What an empty post. Why do even waste your time if you don't have anything to say?



Oh and I know VERY WELL what I'm talking about on this subject and that's all I'm going to say about that just my comments on the internet don't come back to bite me!

No, you don't have a clue.

October 31, 2001 – An Invitation letter from energy sector reception for McGuinty:

“Throughout Ontario’s electricity restructuring process, Dalton and the Ontario Liberals have been consistent supporters of the move to an open electricity market in Ontario.”

April 20, 2002 – McGuinty on Hydro One Court decision:

“This is the single biggest IPO of shares in the history of the country and the government didn’t even take the time to figure out if they were legally entitled to sell the shares. I’m asking Ernie to put the whole thing over until the next election.”

November 12, 2002 – When Eves closed the electricity market and paid Ontarians back for the higher rates they paid in the summer, McGuinty said:

“Ernie’s trying to buy himself the next election.”

November 19, 2002 – After Eves closes the retail electricity market, McGuinty said:

“We didn’t have any choice. I didn't create this mess; My job is to clean it up. The market is dead, deregulation is dead, privatization is dead” (McGuinty and the liberals voted for Bill 35, the bill to deregulate Ontario’s electricity sector).

September 5, 2003 – In an exclusive interview with the Toronto Sun's Editorial Board McGuinty said:

“Deregulation and privatization hasn’t worked and we can’t go back there. I’ve drawn a lesson from that. Number one, we’ve got to keep Hydro Public.”

August 9, 2004 – In a speech to the Empire Club, Energy Minister Dwight Duncan declares:

“All new generation will be private.”

December 5, 2006 – On CBC Morning Radio Energy Minister Duncan declares:

“I’m struggling everyday to keep the price of electricity down.”

August 30, 2007 – The Liberals release their new electricity plan “The integrated power supply plan” (IPSP). Hidden away in the 4,000 page document are plans to expand and open the electricity market again.

Excerpt from Ontario's Integrated Power System Plan (IPSP):

“2.0 REDUCING RELIANCE ON OPA CONTRACTS

“Q. How will the Integrated Power System Plan and/or the Procurement Process facilitate evolution toward a workably competitive electricity market that will reduce reliance on procurements by the OPA?

“A. Both the Integrated Power System Plan (the “IPSP” or the “Plan”) and the Procurement Process (the “Process”) will help facilitate evolution of Ontario’s electricity sector toward a workably competitive market.”

[OnTheIce]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

No, you don't have a clue.

October 31, 2001 – An Invitation letter from energy sector reception for McGuinty:

“Throughout Ontario’s electricity restructuring process, Dalton and the Ontario Liberals have been consistent supporters of the move to an open electricity market in Ontario.”

April 20, 2002 – McGuinty on Hydro One Court decision:

“This is the single biggest IPO of shares in the history of the country and the government didn’t even take the time to figure out if they were legally entitled to sell the shares. I’m asking Ernie to put the whole thing over until the next election.”

November 12, 2002 – When Eves closed the electricity market and paid Ontarians back for the higher rates they paid in the summer, McGuinty said:

“Ernie’s trying to buy himself the next election.”

November 19, 2002 – After Eves closes the retail electricity market, McGuinty said:

“We didn’t have any choice. I didn't create this mess; My job is to clean it up. The market is dead, deregulation is dead, privatization is dead” (McGuinty and the liberals voted for Bill 35, the bill to deregulate Ontario’s electricity sector).

September 5, 2003 – In an exclusive interview with the Toronto Sun's Editorial Board McGuinty said:

“Deregulation and privatization hasn’t worked and we can’t go back there. I’ve drawn a lesson from that. Number one, we’ve got to keep Hydro Public.”

August 9, 2004 – In a speech to the Empire Club, Energy Minister Dwight Duncan declares:

“All new generation will be private.”

December 5, 2006 – On CBC Morning Radio Energy Minister Duncan declares:

“I’m struggling everyday to keep the price of electricity down.”

August 30, 2007 – The Liberals release their new electricity plan “The integrated power supply plan” (IPSP). Hidden away in the 4,000 page document are plans to expand and open the electricity market again.

Excerpt from Ontario's Integrated Power System Plan (IPSP):

“2.0 REDUCING RELIANCE ON OPA CONTRACTS

“Q. How will the Integrated Power System Plan and/or the Procurement Process facilitate evolution toward a workably competitive electricity market that will reduce reliance on procurements by the OPA?

“A. Both the Integrated Power System Plan (the “IPSP” or the “Plan”) and the Procurement Process (the “Process”) will help facilitate evolution of Ontario’s electricity sector toward a workably competitive market.”

[2Cdo]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

No, you don't have a clue.

October 31, 2001 – An Invitation letter from energy sector reception for McGuinty:

“Throughout Ontario’s electricity restructuring process, Dalton and the Ontario Liberals have been consistent supporters of the move to an open electricity market in Ontario.”

April 20, 2002 – McGuinty on Hydro One Court decision:

“This is the single biggest IPO of shares in the history of the country and the government didn’t even take the time to figure out if they were legally entitled to sell the shares. I’m asking Ernie to put the whole thing over until the next election.”

November 12, 2002 – When Eves closed the electricity market and paid Ontarians back for the higher rates they paid in the summer, McGuinty said:

“Ernie’s trying to buy himself the next election.”

November 19, 2002 – After Eves closes the retail electricity market, McGuinty said:

“We didn’t have any choice. I didn't create this mess; My job is to clean it up. The market is dead, deregulation is dead, privatization is dead” (McGuinty and the liberals voted for Bill 35, the bill to deregulate Ontario’s electricity sector).

September 5, 2003 – In an exclusive interview with the Toronto Sun's Editorial Board McGuinty said:

“Deregulation and privatization hasn’t worked and we can’t go back there. I’ve drawn a lesson from that. Number one, we’ve got to keep Hydro Public.”

August 9, 2004 – In a speech to the Empire Club, Energy Minister Dwight Duncan declares:

“All new generation will be private.”

December 5, 2006 – On CBC Morning Radio Energy Minister Duncan declares:

“I’m struggling everyday to keep the price of electricity down.”

August 30, 2007 – The Liberals release their new electricity plan “The integrated power supply plan” (IPSP). Hidden away in the 4,000 page document are plans to expand and open the electricity market again.

Excerpt from Ontario's Integrated Power System Plan (IPSP):

“2.0 REDUCING RELIANCE ON OPA CONTRACTS

“Q. How will the Integrated Power System Plan and/or the Procurement Process facilitate evolution toward a workably competitive electricity market that will reduce reliance on procurements by the OPA?

“A. Both the Integrated Power System Plan (the “IPSP” or the “Plan”) and the Procurement Process (the “Process”) will help facilitate evolution of Ontario’s electricity sector toward a workably competitive market.”

How dare you muddy the waters with little things like facts.

Harris=evil, McGuinty/Wynne=not evil. Repeat often while banging one's head against the wall.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

2Cdo 2Cdo:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

No, you don't have a clue.

October 31, 2001 – An Invitation letter from energy sector reception for McGuinty:

“Throughout Ontario’s electricity restructuring process, Dalton and the Ontario Liberals have been consistent supporters of the move to an open electricity market in Ontario.”

April 20, 2002 – McGuinty on Hydro One Court decision:

“This is the single biggest IPO of shares in the history of the country and the government didn’t even take the time to figure out if they were legally entitled to sell the shares. I’m asking Ernie to put the whole thing over until the next election.”

November 12, 2002 – When Eves closed the electricity market and paid Ontarians back for the higher rates they paid in the summer, McGuinty said:

“Ernie’s trying to buy himself the next election.”

November 19, 2002 – After Eves closes the retail electricity market, McGuinty said:

“We didn’t have any choice. I didn't create this mess; My job is to clean it up. The market is dead, deregulation is dead, privatization is dead” (McGuinty and the liberals voted for Bill 35, the bill to deregulate Ontario’s electricity sector).

September 5, 2003 – In an exclusive interview with the Toronto Sun's Editorial Board McGuinty said:

“Deregulation and privatization hasn’t worked and we can’t go back there. I’ve drawn a lesson from that. Number one, we’ve got to keep Hydro Public.”

August 9, 2004 – In a speech to the Empire Club, Energy Minister Dwight Duncan declares:

“All new generation will be private.”

December 5, 2006 – On CBC Morning Radio Energy Minister Duncan declares:

“I’m struggling everyday to keep the price of electricity down.”

August 30, 2007 – The Liberals release their new electricity plan “The integrated power supply plan” (IPSP). Hidden away in the 4,000 page document are plans to expand and open the electricity market again.

Excerpt from Ontario's Integrated Power System Plan (IPSP):

“2.0 REDUCING RELIANCE ON OPA CONTRACTS

“Q. How will the Integrated Power System Plan and/or the Procurement Process facilitate evolution toward a workably competitive electricity market that will reduce reliance on procurements by the OPA?

“A. Both the Integrated Power System Plan (the “IPSP” or the “Plan”) and the Procurement Process (the “Process”) will help facilitate evolution of Ontario’s electricity sector toward a workably competitive market.”

How dare you muddy the waters with little things like facts.

Harris=evil, McGuinty/Wynne=not evil. Repeat often while banging one's head against the wall.

The thing is, while Ontario's Liberals lean left when it comes to "social" issues like the LGBT community and special interest groups like immigrants or those who practice non-western religions, they are definitely closet Conservatives when it comes to stuff like privatization of hydro and literally installing their ideology on the landscape.

For example, within the last 2-3 days or so, the govt of Texas put a ban on fracking bans. In Ontario, the Liberals removed and or blocked every mechanism for landowners to fight the placement of wind turbines and even going so far as to let "Big Wind" write up the regulations. Regulations btw that are NOT consistent with international standards.

[BeaverFever]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

That’s your excuse? Really? That didn’t stop them from implementing the largest tax increase in Ontario’s history with the health care premium. They’ve had a majority government, there’s no excuse to blame Harris for things you’ve been in control over for the last 12+ years..

Well then you should wrtie the Liberals to advise them that they've been too cautious with raising taxes and that they should hike them even more to reverse the Harris cuts. I'm sure they'll appreciate your support.

I mean, what do you want me to say?

$1:

On the energy file, you’re placing the blame in the wrong place. The deregulation only happened a year before McGuinty was sworn into office. This whole door-to-door thing started under the watch of McGuinty. The competitive market didn’t actually open until May of 2002. The Liberals have had 12 years to make this change.

Ok but you understand how the world works right? Like what are you saying, McGuinty should have used his sense of clairvoyance to foresee that these companies were gong to be crooks and then snapped his fingers to instantly will it out of existence at his personal whim?

Let me break it down for you:


- 1995: Shortly after election Mike Harris commisions "The MacDonald Committee" to study deregulation of electicity marktet, Committee recommends deregulation (shocker, right?)

- 1997: Based on MacDonald Committee's report Harris gov't releases deregulation plan titled "Direction for Change: Charting a Course for Competitive Electricity and Jobs in Ontario"

- Let's pause for a second here: notice how 2 years have already passed, just to issue a report on a report? This is the pace of government for things like this because of the sheer amount of public and private sector money at stake in these decision This isn't North Korea, where dear leader's utterings are instantly law. There is PROCESS and TIMETABLES to make sure everyone's input is recieved and analyzed. Now lets continue shall we?


- 1998: Electricity Act and Ontario Energy Board Act passed into law by Harris gov't. "Competitive" Private Energy Marketing is now legal. NOTE: Private energy marketers do not actually produce energy or own any energy infracsturre. Per the Enron model, it is a purely financial activity, where comodities traders buy and sell Energy contracts from utilties and on the worldwide market on paper though a series of shoft-term and long-term contracts, and then sign up customers who aggree to pay them monthly. The actual energy is still produced and deliveered by the same traditional utilities.

- 2002: Competitive market opens for business - that's just the time it took for new companies to legally form, raise capital, hire and train management and staff, etc. Companies do not spring up overnight like mushrooms.

- 2003: Liberals Elected
- 2004: Electricity Restructuring Act amends the Mike Harris 1998 laws
- Consumer complaints pile up, lots of news/media coverage (see Ellen Roseman for example)
- Business groups claim they are in "incubator period", lobby for "more time", promise to get their act in order, blame "teething problems" , fear monger about government intervention, etc. Cry about how much money the've invested, some of which is tied up in the market on "long-term energy plays", claim (not without some truth) that business will not invest in Ontario if the laws change as frequently as the weather and companies can lose billions instantly when a governemnt changes.

- Debate over whether new laws need or if existing laws need to be better enforced

- Government signals it is goint to enact legislation: conslutations, lobbying, etc.

- 2009: First Draft of Energy Consumer Protection Act (ECPA) introduced
- April 2010: Final draft of ECPA passed: Private Sector asked for commentary by August 2010
- Bill Came into Force Jauray 1 2011

The above is just what I have readily available

[OnTheIce]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Well then you should wrtie the Liberals to advise them that they've been too cautious with raising taxes and that they should hike them even more to reverse the Harris cuts. I'm sure they'll appreciate your support.

I mean, what do you want me to say?

You should write the letter. You're the guy upset with the big hole on our revenue. Tell them to fix it.

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Let me break it down for you:

It was already broken down for you above. PA9 schooled you.

[BeaverFever]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

No, you don't have a clue.

October 31, 2001 – An Invitation letter from energy sector reception for McGuinty:

“Throughout Ontario’s electricity restructuring process, Dalton and the Ontario Liberals have been consistent supporters of the move to an open electricity market in Ontario.”

April 20, 2002 – McGuinty on Hydro One Court decision:

“This is the single biggest IPO of shares in the history of the country and the government didn’t even take the time to figure out if they were legally entitled to sell the shares. I’m asking Ernie to put the whole thing over until the next election.”

November 12, 2002 – When Eves closed the electricity market and paid Ontarians back for the higher rates they paid in the summer, McGuinty said:

“Ernie’s trying to buy himself the next election.”

November 19, 2002 – After Eves closes the retail electricity market, McGuinty said:

“We didn’t have any choice. I didn't create this mess; My job is to clean it up. The market is dead, deregulation is dead, privatization is dead” (McGuinty and the liberals voted for Bill 35, the bill to deregulate Ontario’s electricity sector).

September 5, 2003 – In an exclusive interview with the Toronto Sun's Editorial Board McGuinty said:

“Deregulation and privatization hasn’t worked and we can’t go back there. I’ve drawn a lesson from that. Number one, we’ve got to keep Hydro Public.”

August 9, 2004 – In a speech to the Empire Club, Energy Minister Dwight Duncan declares:

“All new generation will be private.”

December 5, 2006 – On CBC Morning Radio Energy Minister Duncan declares:

“I’m struggling everyday to keep the price of electricity down.”

August 30, 2007 – The Liberals release their new electricity plan “The integrated power supply plan” (IPSP). Hidden away in the 4,000 page document are plans to expand and open the electricity market again.

Excerpt from Ontario's Integrated Power System Plan (IPSP):

“2.0 REDUCING RELIANCE ON OPA CONTRACTS

“Q. How will the Integrated Power System Plan and/or the Procurement Process facilitate evolution toward a workably competitive electricity market that will reduce reliance on procurements by the OPA?

“A. Both the Integrated Power System Plan (the “IPSP” or the “Plan”) and the Procurement Process (the “Process”) will help facilitate evolution of Ontario’s electricity sector toward a workably competitive market.”

All you've done above is barf up a bunch non-relevant and barely related faces.

- The energy sector invivted McGuinty to a party while his party was in OPPOSITION. They said something vague and general about him being a suporter of "open markets". So? Howdoes that mean he supports door-to-door sales or unscrupulous practicses?

- You show some examples of McGuinty making anti-deregulation comments in opposition to the Conservative's deregulation. What the hell is your point? how does that prove that the Liberals are responsible for deregulation?

- The rest of your points are just general things you've obviously googled in haste. Yes, he wants to reduce OPA acqutions - that has nothing to do with door-to-door sales or that he is reponsbile for them.

Typcial cheering from the idiot gallery though. I mean, I don't want to deflate your ego but you honestly couldve saved some time and just mashed the keybouard with your palm and 2CdO would have chimed in "awesome man! your argument put him in his place! That stoopid stoopid-head is uh....real stoopid!"

[PublicAnimalNo9]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

That’s your excuse? Really? That didn’t stop them from implementing the largest tax increase in Ontario’s history with the health care premium. They’ve had a majority government, there’s no excuse to blame Harris for things you’ve been in control over for the last 12+ years..

Well then you should wrtie the Liberals to advise them that they've been too cautious with raising taxes and that they should hike them even more to reverse the Harris cuts. I'm sure they'll appreciate your support.

I mean, what do you want me to say?

$1:

On the energy file, you’re placing the blame in the wrong place. The deregulation only happened a year before McGuinty was sworn into office. This whole door-to-door thing started under the watch of McGuinty. The competitive market didn’t actually open until May of 2002. The Liberals have had 12 years to make this change.

Ok but you understand how the world works right? Like what are you saying, McGuinty should have used his sense of clairvoyance to foresee that these companies were gong to be crooks and then snapped his fingers to instantly will it out of existence at his personal whim?

Let me break it down for you:


- 1995: Shortly after election Mike Harris commisions "The MacDonald Committee" to study deregulation of electicity marktet, Committee recommends deregulation (shocker, right?)

- 1997: Based on MacDonald Committee's report Harris gov't releases deregulation plan titled "Direction for Change: Charting a Course for Competitive Electricity and Jobs in Ontario"

- Let's pause for a second here: notice how 2 years have already passed, just to issue a report on a report? This is the pace of government for things like this because of the sheer amount of public and private sector money at stake in these decision This isn't North Korea, where dear leader's utterings are instantly law. There is PROCESS and TIMETABLES to make sure everyone's input is recieved and analyzed.

Yeah, just like with the gas plants, right? Just like the wind turbines, right? The simple fact is, McGuinty stated that privatization and deregulation was a bad deal for Ontario and yet he and his Liberals still voted for it when Harris introduced it, and they brought it back to life after Eves closed the market in November and lost the following election.

So for a WHOLE six months, the Conservatives had opened up the electricity market before closing it down again. And somehow, it's still their fault that the Liberals revived the idea and have run with it for years now.

[2Cdo]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Harris=evil, McGuinty/Wynne=not evil

Taking a page from andys playlist. Anyone who agrees with someone who exposes your partisan bias is deserving of name calling.

I'm just surprised you didn't leap in with andys homophobic "circle jerk" comment.

And you still don't have a fucking clue. Even when it's shown to you that this falls directly under the Liberals watch, you blame the party that hasn't been in power for over 12 years.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

No, you don't have a clue.

October 31, 2001 – An Invitation letter from energy sector reception for McGuinty:

“Throughout Ontario’s electricity restructuring process, Dalton and the Ontario Liberals have been consistent supporters of the move to an open electricity market in Ontario.”

April 20, 2002 – McGuinty on Hydro One Court decision:

“This is the single biggest IPO of shares in the history of the country and the government didn’t even take the time to figure out if they were legally entitled to sell the shares. I’m asking Ernie to put the whole thing over until the next election.”

November 12, 2002 – When Eves closed the electricity market and paid Ontarians back for the higher rates they paid in the summer, McGuinty said:

“Ernie’s trying to buy himself the next election.”

November 19, 2002 – After Eves closes the retail electricity market, McGuinty said:

“We didn’t have any choice. I didn't create this mess; My job is to clean it up. The market is dead, deregulation is dead, privatization is dead” (McGuinty and the liberals voted for Bill 35, the bill to deregulate Ontario’s electricity sector).

September 5, 2003 – In an exclusive interview with the Toronto Sun's Editorial Board McGuinty said:

“Deregulation and privatization hasn’t worked and we can’t go back there. I’ve drawn a lesson from that. Number one, we’ve got to keep Hydro Public.”

August 9, 2004 – In a speech to the Empire Club, Energy Minister Dwight Duncan declares:

“All new generation will be private.”

December 5, 2006 – On CBC Morning Radio Energy Minister Duncan declares:

“I’m struggling everyday to keep the price of electricity down.”

August 30, 2007 – The Liberals release their new electricity plan “The integrated power supply plan” (IPSP). Hidden away in the 4,000 page document are plans to expand and open the electricity market again.

Excerpt from Ontario's Integrated Power System Plan (IPSP):

“2.0 REDUCING RELIANCE ON OPA CONTRACTS

“Q. How will the Integrated Power System Plan and/or the Procurement Process facilitate evolution toward a workably competitive electricity market that will reduce reliance on procurements by the OPA?

“A. Both the Integrated Power System Plan (the “IPSP” or the “Plan”) and the Procurement Process (the “Process”) will help facilitate evolution of Ontario’s electricity sector toward a workably competitive market.”

All you've done above is barf up a bunch non-relevant and barely related faces.

- The energy sector invivted McGuinty to a party while his party was in OPPOSITION. They said something vague and general about him being a suporter of "open markets". So? Howdoes that mean he supports door-to-door sales or unscrupulous practicses?

- You show some examples of McGuinty making anti-deregulation comments in opposition to the Conservative's deregulation. What the hell is your point? how does that prove that the Liberals are responsible for deregulation?

- The rest of your points are just general things you've obviously googled in haste. Yes, he wants to reduce OPA acqutions - that has nothing to do with door-to-door sales or that he is reponsbile for them.

Typcial cheering from the idiot gallery though. I mean, I don't want to deflate your ego but you honestly couldve saved some time and just mashed the keybouard with your palm and 2CdO would have chimed in "awesome man! your argument put him in his place! That stoopid stoopid-head is uh....real stoopid!"

Nothing to do with door to door sales? Nothing like the blind stupidity of partisan thinking. I don't want to deflate YOUR ego but I'd suggest you contact the university you attended and demand a refund. Door to door sales was a DIRECT result of deregulation and opening up the energy market for private resellers. Again, something that McGuinty and his Liberals not only voted for, they reinstated it after Eves learned what a horrible idea it was and closed the market after only 6 months.
They also had YEARS to deal with the unscrupulous methods the door-to-door energy resellers would use and did sweet fuck all about it despite the piles of complaints, until now.

But hey keep it up, it's kind'a funny watching your supposedly "superior" crtitical thinking skills that you liberals seem to think you are the sole possessors of, fail to make a pretty simple connection between deregulation and door-to-door sales.

Your rather jejune attempt to insult my intelligence was laughably childish and an example of how your mind operates when confronted with facts that don't support the liberal narrative that you're so fond of parroting.

Liberal narrative prime deflection; It's ALWAYS the Conservatives fault.

Even after 13 years in power with a majority govt, Ontario's woes are STILL somehow the fault of the Conservatives.