[novachick]

DerbyX DerbyX:

ridenrain ridenrain:

I'm not talking about pot because I've been very clear on that issue before.
I'm talking about the wide variety of drugs either imported or cooked up in someone's bathtub using industrial chemicals and who knows what else.
All of which are the main money makers for organized crime.

Hard drugs are illegal in most other countries and even the European "progressive" nations are seeing the error in their past liberal policies.

No they aren't. If anything they are seeing the cost and futility in a legal war on drugs. You have been reading to many conservative blogs. Decriminilization/legality allows alot of resources shifted to better uses then the very great cost of policing, charging, trying, and punishing people for making a moral choice.

Can't agree with you on this one Derby. Well I'm all for decriminalization of weed. The producers and distributors of crack, meth and the legal producers and distributors of poison in a jar ( paxil, oxy etc)GlaxoSmithKline etc, family doctor, health Canada should be lined up against a wall and shot in the head. We have both illegal and legal drug pushers in this country killing people, harming children and destroying family's.

[Zipperfish]

Life is the leading cause of death.

Who cares if all my boozing knocks two statitsical years off my life expectancy? The purpose, for me anyways, is not to stay alive as long as possible, it's to enjoy each adn every day.

[novachick]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Life is the leading cause of death.

Who cares if all my boozing knocks two statitsical years off my life expectancy? The purpose, for me anyways, is not to stay alive as long as possible, it's to enjoy each adn every day.

I agree your first statement. The problem is addict's of both legal and illegal drugs DON'T enjoy their life. It's hard to enjoy life when a drug has begun to make you physically and mentally ill.

[DerbyX]

novachick novachick:

Can't agree with you on this one Derby. Well I'm all for decriminalization of weed. The producers and distributors of crack, meth and the legal producers and distributors of poison in a jar ( paxil, oxy etc)GlaxoSmithKline etc, family doctor, health Canada should be lined up against a wall and shot in the head. We have both illegal and legal drug pushers in this country killing people, harming children and destroying family's.

How much money and resources are wasted on policing? Alot. Far more then most people suspect. Police resources, the cost of providing lawyers for the culprits (who invariably use legalaid), the cost associated with the trial andthe largest of all is any incarceration. That cost is enormous. If we devoted even a small amount of that cost to healthcare we would see measureable improvements.

Illegality doesn't deter usage and the idea that legalization leads to widespread use isn't persuasive. The same resources used to educate people now about the damage of tobacco and drugs would be boosted. The same method of education rather then policing would be more effective. Look at tobacco usage. It was never made illegal but education about its ill effects has slowly but surely lowered its usage, a good thing too since we are paying in health costs the effects of higher usage throughout the 60s, 70s, and 80s yet have reeped at least tax recoupment.

Drugs may indeed cause harm but then again so does gambling and alot of other things that society would abhor to see made criminal.

Since time immorial govts have tried to legislate morality. It always fails.

[novachick]

DerbyX DerbyX:

novachick novachick:

Can't agree with you on this one Derby. Well I'm all for decriminalization of weed. The producers and distributors of crack, meth and the legal producers and distributors of poison in a jar ( paxil, oxy etc)GlaxoSmithKline etc, family doctor, health Canada should be lined up against a wall and shot in the head. We have both illegal and legal drug pushers in this country killing people, harming children and destroying family's.

How much money and resources are wasted on policing? Alot. Far more then most people suspect. Police resources, the cost of providing lawyers for the culprits (who invariably use legalaid), the cost associated with the trial andthe largest of all is any incarceration. That cost is enormous. If we devoted even a small amount of that cost to healthcare we would see measureable improvements.

Illegality doesn't deter usage and the idea that legalization leads to widespread use isn't persuasive. The same resources used to educate people now about the damage of tobacco and drugs would be boosted. The same method of education rather then policing would be more effective. Look at tobacco usage. It was never made illegal but education about its ill effects has slowly but surely lowered its usage, a good thing too since we are paying in health costs the effects of higher usage throughout the 60s, 70s, and 80s yet have reeped at least tax recoupment.

Drugs may indeed cause harm but then again so does gambling and alot of other things that society would abhor to see made criminal.

Since time immorial govts have tried to legislate morality. It always fails.

You make all very good and persuasive points. It is a waste of tax payer dollars unless we bring back capitol punishment and start killing the fuckers . Frankly in my book if you produce , distribute drugs that you know will harm, addict and kill people that's first degree murder. Let's throw away all the pretty BS we wrap it up in and call it what it is...murder!

[Zipperfish]

novachick novachick:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Life is the leading cause of death.

Who cares if all my boozing knocks two statitsical years off my life expectancy? The purpose, for me anyways, is not to stay alive as long as possible, it's to enjoy each adn every day.

I agree your first statement. The problem is addict's of both legal and illegal drugs DON'T enjoy their life. It's hard to enjoy life when a drug has begun to make you physically and mentally ill.

Couldn't agree more. But the problem with studies like this is that they get the temperance folks all fired up--you know, the folks who think it's their mission in life to ban everything fun. And before you know it, I can't enjoy my 16 y.o. single malt because Dinglenuts can't hold his booze.

If you do nothing but eat broccoli and do yoga all day then you might not live longer, but it'll sure seem like it!

[DerbyX]

novachick novachick:

You make all very good and persuasive points. It is a waste of tax payer dollars unless we bring back capitol punishment and start killing the fuckers . Frankly in my book if you produce , distribute drugs that you know will harm, addict and kill people that's first degree murder. Let's throw away all the pretty BS we wrap it up in and call it what it is...murder!

The problem is that those arguments can be used against legal perscription drugs, tobacco and alcohol for one. Problems associated with gambling argue it should be illegal as well.

The truth is that the govt could "morally" make illegal so many aspects of society
that they would destroy it eventually.

How about the "moralists" wanting to take fighting out of hockey?

[novachick]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

novachick novachick:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Life is the leading cause of death.

Who cares if all my boozing knocks two statitsical years off my life expectancy? The purpose, for me anyways, is not to stay alive as long as possible, it's to enjoy each adn every day.

I agree your first statement. The problem is addict's of both legal and illegal drugs DON'T enjoy their life. It's hard to enjoy life when a drug has begun to make you physically and mentally ill.

Couldn't agree more. But the problem with studies like this is that they get the temperance folks all fired up--you know, the folks who think it's their mission in life to ban everything fun. And before you know it, I can't enjoy my 16 y.o. single malt because Dinglenuts can't hold his booze.

If you do nothing but eat broccoli and do yoga all day then you might not live longer, but it'll sure seem like it!

Hmmmm that's a persuasive argument too. The thing is I don't really consider booze to be in the same league as crack, meth and many prescription drugs. That's not to say it isn't abused, it isn't addictive, doesn't cause family problems. Thee thing is time has proven people are able to use alcohol responsibly. I have yet to meet many responsible crack heads.

[DerbyX]

novachick novachick:

The thing is I don't really consider booze to be in the same league as crack, meth and many prescription drugs. That's not to say it isn't abused, it isn't addictive, doesn't cause family problems. Thee thing is time has proven people are able to use alcohol responsibly. I have yet to meet many responsible crack heads.

I don't to sound insulting or anything but that is very very wrong. Alcoholism has destroyed alot of families. There is a reason why AA is so prevalent.

$1:

Effects
Main article: Long-term effects of alcohol
The primary effect of alcoholism is to encourage the sufferer to drink at times and in amounts that are damaging to physical health. The secondary damage caused by an inability to control one's drinking manifests in many ways. Alcoholism also has a significant social costs to both the alcoholic and their family and friends. Alcoholics have a very high suicide rate with studies showing between 8% and 21% of alcoholics commit suicide. Alcoholism also has a significant adverse impact on mental health. The risk of suicide among alcoholics has been determined to be 5080 times that of the general public.[28]


Physical health effects
It is common for a person suffering from alcoholism to drink well after physical health effects start to manifest. The physical health effects associated with alcohol consumption may include cirrhosis of the liver, pancreatitis, epilepsy, polyneuropathy, alcoholic dementia, heart disease, increased chance of cancer, nutritional deficiencies, sexual dysfunction, and death from many sources.


Mental health effects
Long term misuse of alcohol can cause a wide range of mental health effects. Alcohol misuse is not only toxic to the body but also to brain function and thus psychological well being can be adversely affected by the long-term effects of alcohol misuse. Psychiatric disorders are common in alcoholics, especially anxiety and depression disorders, with as many as 25% of alcoholics presenting with severe psychiatric disturbances. Typically these psychiatric symptoms caused by alcohol misuse initially worsen during alcohol withdrawal but with abstinence these psychiatric symptoms typically gradually improve or disappear altogether.[29] Panic disorder can develop as a direct result of long term alcohol misuse. Panic disorder can also worsen or occur as part of the alcohol withdrawal syndrome.[30] Chronic alcohol misuse can cause panic disorder to develop or worsen an underlying panic disorder via distortion of the neurochemical system in the brain.[31]


Social effects
The social problems arising from alcoholism can be significant. Being drunk or hung over during work hours can result in loss of employment, which can lead to financial problems including the loss of living quarters. Drinking at inappropriate times, and behavior caused by reduced judgment, can lead to legal consequences, such as criminal charges for drunk driving or public disorder, or civil penalties for tortious behavior. An alcoholic's behavior and mental impairment while drunk can profoundly impact surrounding family and friends, possibly leading to marital conflict and divorce, or contributing to domestic violence. This can contribute to lasting damage to the emotional development of the alcoholic's children, even after they reach adulthood. The alcoholic could suffer from loss of respect from others who may see the problem as self-inflicted and easily avoided.

This is to say nothing of the effects drinking and driving causes. Lives and families have been destroyed time and again over this aspect.

[TattoodGirl]

$1:

Hmmmm that's a persuasive argument too. The thing is I don't really consider booze to be in the same league as crack, meth and many prescription drugs. That's not to say it isn't abused, it isn't addictive, doesn't cause family problems. Thee thing is time has proven people are able to use alcohol responsibly. I have yet to meet many responsible crack heads.

Have to completely disagree with this. I have met plenty of recreational users that live productive and healthy lives. Alcohol is still the most abused drug out there, leading to more violence than any other drug.

[novachick]

DerbyX DerbyX:

novachick novachick:

The thing is I don't really consider booze to be in the same league as crack, meth and many prescription drugs. That's not to say it isn't abused, it isn't addictive, doesn't cause family problems. Thee thing is time has proven people are able to use alcohol responsibly. I have yet to meet many responsible crack heads.

I don't to sound insulting or anything but that is very very wrong. Alcoholism has destroyed alot of families. There is a reason why AA is so prevalent.

$1:

Effects
Main article: Long-term effects of alcohol
The primary effect of alcoholism is to encourage the sufferer to drink at times and in amounts that are damaging to physical health. The secondary damage caused by an inability to control one's drinking manifests in many ways. Alcoholism also has a significant social costs to both the alcoholic and their family and friends. Alcoholics have a very high suicide rate with studies showing between 8% and 21% of alcoholics commit suicide. Alcoholism also has a significant adverse impact on mental health. The risk of suicide among alcoholics has been determined to be 5080 times that of the general public.[28]



Physical health effects
It is common for a person suffering from alcoholism to drink well after physical health effects start to manifest. The physical health effects associated with alcohol consumption may include cirrhosis of the liver, pancreatitis, epilepsy, polyneuropathy, alcoholic dementia, heart disease, increased chance of cancer, nutritional deficiencies, sexual dysfunction, and death from many sources.


Mental health effects
Long term misuse of alcohol can cause a wide range of mental health effects. Alcohol misuse is not only toxic to the body but also to brain function and thus psychological well being can be adversely affected by the long-term effects of alcohol misuse. Psychiatric disorders are common in alcoholics, especially anxiety and depression disorders, with as many as 25% of alcoholics presenting with severe psychiatric disturbances. Typically these psychiatric symptoms caused by alcohol misuse initially worsen during alcohol withdrawal but with abstinence these psychiatric symptoms typically gradually improve or disappear altogether.[29] Panic disorder can develop as a direct result of long term alcohol misuse. Panic disorder can also worsen or occur as part of the alcohol withdrawal syndrome.[30] Chronic alcohol misuse can cause panic disorder to develop or worsen an underlying panic disorder via distortion of the neurochemical system in the brain.[31]


Social effects
The social problems arising from alcoholism can be significant. Being drunk or hung over during work hours can result in loss of employment, which can lead to financial problems including the loss of living quarters. Drinking at inappropriate times, and behavior caused by reduced judgment, can lead to legal consequences, such as criminal charges for drunk driving or public disorder, or civil penalties for tortious behavior. An alcoholic's behavior and mental impairment while drunk can profoundly impact surrounding family and friends, possibly leading to marital conflict and divorce, or contributing to domestic violence. This can contribute to lasting damage to the emotional development of the alcoholic's children, even after they reach adulthood. The alcoholic could suffer from loss of respect from others who may see the problem as self-inflicted and easily avoided.

This is to say nothing of the effects drinking and driving causes. Lives and families have been destroyed time and again over this aspect.

I'm well aware my dad was an alcoholic. The thing is not everyone that uses alcohol will become addicted to it. Everyone that uses crack or paxil for instance WILL eventually become addicted to it. That's a fact. Worse still someone on paxil will likely not abuse it, yet some will die by their own hand withdrawing from it, thats a fact. The makers of Paxil -GlaxoSmithKline knew when the drug was introduced to the prescription drug market. When people stopped taking their drug , they would become extremely ill, they knew babies would be born basically addicted and going through withdrawal. Withdrawal symptoms include, profuse vomiting like you have downed a quart of liquor. You'll be laying on your bathroom floor covered in sweat, dry heaving while the whole room spins and you can't stop. Your body will suddenly begin shaking and you can't stop it. Your head will constantly pound and you will receive what basically feels like a sudden and strong electrical shock at the base of your skull. You will become depressed and in some people suicidal, some though rarely will be homicidal. You will become irrational and at times have trouble making a cohesive thought. You won't be able to eat without throwing up, something as simple as having a shower will become an ordeal that requires two people to do. At times you will be completely nonfunctional. These aren't all the side effects of stopping the drug only some of them. Here's the kicker this will start before you have even completely stopped taking the drug and will continue for an unknown period of time. Studies have shown in some people it continues for as long as a year. There is NOTHING they can do to stop these effects of "discontinuation" as GlaxoSmithKline likes to call it other than simply try to live through it. The company knew all this when they released the drug but didn't disclose it. The drug is still on the market, doctors are still pushing it. The studies I'm sure we won't see are the number of people that turn to street or other drugs to stop the symptoms of "DISCONTINUATION" the assholes what even call it what it is WITHDRAWAL like any but in many cases worse than any street drug you will ever come up against. Not even crack withdrawal will be as bad as this. Let's take Dilaudid again a prescription pain reliever that once addicted to in high doses MUST be replaced with methadone because "discontinuation" can result in death. My point is how do we even begin to win a war on drugs when the worst pushers are your legal drug companies, government, pharmacy and family doctor. You might be thinking people make that choice, in the case of paxil no they didn't. They began taking the drug before it was uncovered what the producer had failed to disclose. Once health Canada became aware of it they held onto the information for awhile before they disclosed it. Some pharmacists and family doctors are STILL failing to inform patients MANY of our street addicts became that way as a result of their visit to a family doctor that ended up with a nice vacation in Florida golfing courtesy of the very company that produced the drug our street addict is addicted to. Our crack dealers etc are the very least of our problem in our society. They are merely cashing in on what the aforementioned started for them. The war on drugs will never be truly won because our economy would collapse if it ever were.

[novachick]

TattoodGirl TattoodGirl:

$1:

Hmmmm that's a persuasive argument too. The thing is I don't really consider booze to be in the same league as crack, meth and many prescription drugs. That's not to say it isn't abused, it isn't addictive, doesn't cause family problems. Thee thing is time has proven people are able to use alcohol responsibly. I have yet to meet many responsible crack heads.

Have to completely disagree with this. I have met plenty of recreational users that live productive and healthy lives. Alcohol is still the most abused drug out there, leading to more violence than any other drug.

They may be recreational users now, that will be highly unlikely years from now if they continue to use. Every addict of crack was a recreational user at some point. I agree their are some that can keep it at this level but statistically they are extremely rare. It's also the line that many crack heads cling too as a form of self denial that they are addicted or will become addicted. No offense Tatt but it's also a line used many times by their enabler who doesn't want to face the truth because the reality of what is about to happen scares the shit out of them.

[TattoodGirl]

novachick novachick:

TattoodGirl TattoodGirl:

$1:

Hmmmm that's a persuasive argument too. The thing is I don't really consider booze to be in the same league as crack, meth and many prescription drugs. That's not to say it isn't abused, it isn't addictive, doesn't cause family problems. Thee thing is time has proven people are able to use alcohol responsibly. I have yet to meet many responsible crack heads.

Have to completely disagree with this. I have met plenty of recreational users that live productive and healthy lives. Alcohol is still the most abused drug out there, leading to more violence than any other drug.

They may be recreational users now, that will be highly unlikely years from now if they continue to use. Every addict of crack was a recreational user at some point. I agree their are some that can keep it at this level but statistically they are extremely rare.

That is like saying everyone that drinks becomes an addict. it is not fact. Just as some can take or leave smoking. Addiction is much more than physical it is mental as well. These are life rec users...very functioning.

[novachick]

TattoodGirl TattoodGirl:

That is like saying everyone that drinks becomes an addict. it is not fact. Just as some can take or leave smoking. Addiction is much more than physical it is mental as well. These are life rec users...very functioning.

Again as I say rare. I'm like you Tatt I didn't read this on the net, I've lived it. I've lived and seen hard core alcoholism , I'm talking drinking rubbing alocohol . THEY still don't come anywhere close to a crack or in many cases prescription drug addict.

[TattoodGirl]

novachick novachick:

TattoodGirl TattoodGirl:

That is like saying everyone that drinks becomes an addict. it is not fact. Just as some can take or leave smoking. Addiction is much more than physical it is mental as well. These are life rec users...very functioning.

Again as I say rare. I'm like you Tatt I didn't read this on the net, I've lived it. I've lived and seen hard core alcoholism , I'm talking drinking rubbing alocohol . THEY still don't come anywhere close to a crack or in many cases prescription drug addict.

the most prevalent addict I see come through Detox is Alcohol. And yes It always goes down to rubbing alcohol. Detox from Alcohol is deadly and some can never be fully detoxed much like Benzo abuse...prescriptions. Two legal substances...one from government liquor stores and one from doctors. And why dont you think they dont come close to crack?

I know you have seen it but you have to look at addiction objectively and not from an emotional viewpoint. It is difficult when it is close to home, but crack addiction is no where near as bad as Meth, Alcohol and prescription meds. I always prefer working with crack addiction then the fore mentioned.