[Guy_Fawkes]

Putz, Im not going to say the wheels are going to fall off the wagon, but hang around a school some time and see what is going on. The push has been on Afghanistan for far too long. As for telling me I should get out, get stuffed. I might seem negative, but I just try to call it as I see it. From my little patch of terra firma shit has gotten worse, not better, in the last 3 years. We need a break from deployments, your average citizen doesn’t give a fuck and the Americans are the swinging dicks in Afghanistan now. Stick to the plan, 2011 is the perfect time to leave, I’m sure we will still have boots on the ground, but 90% of them should be in KAF or Kabul.

[PENATRATOR]

Those of us that were around for the adventure in the Balkans were on Roto practically every 18 months. Once this carnival started to shutdown, we got right into the "stan. Broken marriages, stress and burnout is nothing new.

[Praxius]

Guy_Fawkes Guy_Fawkes:

Eventually its going to get to the point where the CF will just fall apart because of extension after extension. The CF needs a break, and really the average person doesn’t give a shit. The only ones whom feel the stress are the military members; it’s going to be impossible soon to keep up with the attrition.

Actually I give a shit.... I've always been recognizing that our troops have been in the front lines ever since they got their boots on the ground over there.

Others in the forces have been talking about the equipment breaking down and troops going over on their second, third, and sometimes fourth tours.

How much more are we going to ask of our troops already? Will our government and people only be satisfied of their contributions if they die?

We made a commitment to an ally someone mentioned.... yet you don't just make blind commitments that don't go both ways. Where the hell are the people asking for commitment from our allies?

Where the hell is our backup??

More US Troops straight from Iraq, with Iraq Mentality?

Wonderful Might as well carpet bomb our troops now and get it over with.

Our forces need backup from troops who know the land, who know the people, not a bunch of PTSD forces from Iraq who are accustomed to seeing everybody as an insurgent ready to blow you up and quick on the trigger.

We got enough on our plates as it is from trying to PR all the US Air Strikes that kill civilians, let alone putting our forces amongst US forces with no experience in Afghanistan at all.

And there are major differences between Afghanistan and Iraq.

[PENATRATOR]

Believe me Prax, as a guy who has had his boots on that ground, backup is welcome, either straight from Iraq or where ever. I have served with many Militaries all over the world, given a choice, I would proudly serve alongside US forces before I would the French or British any day of the week.

[Praxius]

KorbenDeck KorbenDeck:

I see leaving before the job is done as being a coward.

Tell me.... what is the job?

What is the mission?

What is the end game?

See, there isn't a clear mission, other then a long list of sporadic little objectives that don't solve the overall problem, and too many allies who don't give a damn.

There's a difference between a coward, a dumb ass sucker and someone who uses their damn brains.

If you want to live the warrior life and never back down, even when you have no idea what the hell is going on around you, go right ahead and tell me how long you live.

Stand right in the middle of the train tracks with your forehead aims squarely at the bullet train coming your way and don't dodge or you're a coward.

*Splat*

There.... you sure showed us... you're not a coward that's for sure.

But you're also dead you dumb mook, now look what you did?

Did that accomplish anything?

Nope.... now people will just think you're dumb (not directed as personal insult, just based on the above hypothetical) and the thing about not being a coward would come secondary.

Do you really have such a blind mentality on the subject that you believe our soldiers should just keep at it for another decade no matter what the cost?

Why?

To what end?

Where is the justification? Because Bush told us to jump and we asked how high?

Because we're either with them or the Terr'ists?

To keep up the "Holy Crusade?"

There's such a thing as being a coward during a time of justified sacrafice... and there's such a thing as being a moron who does what everybody tells them via peer pressure, even if it kills them.

Our soldiers have done beyond what anybody, including our allies expected, like they have always done in our history. But there is no solid, direct mission plan and nobody else wants to get their hands dirty.

If everybody else would step up to the plate, this whole damn thing would have been done and over with a long time ago.

We can not do it alone, and we can not do it forever...... And sticking our nose to the grindstone until we're down to the bone isn't going to make anything better, it's not going to show we're not cowards, it's going to show that we're dumb ass chumps with no backbone to decide things on our own.

[PENATRATOR]

Praxius Praxius:

KorbenDeck KorbenDeck:

I see leaving before the job is done as being a coward.

*Splat*

There.... you sure showed us... you're not a coward that's for sure.

But you're also dead you dumb mook, now look what you did?

Did that accomplish anything?

N.

I personally think this comment is offensive to my personal friends that have given their lives bravely serving their country with honour.

I am sure you did not mean it that way, but I suggest you choose your words more carefully.

* Added. While I'd agree with most of the post, I think some of the words and methods you are using are a bit over the top in regards to what is really going on, but that's how you roll.

[Praxius]

KorbenDeck KorbenDeck:

Oh I am not saying the military is being a coward, I am saying most Canadians are cowards. Everyone supported the mission in the beginning, then the moment things started getting tough people who supported the mission suddenly wanted Canada out. Canada is leaving Afghanistan for political reasons, not because the CF needs a break.

Wrong and Wrong.

I never supported the mission, however once it was no option that our troops were over there, and listened to the troops about wanting to help the people out who have nothing, I figured, if they found their justification, then so be it, but I never supported the mission.

Then after a while, we started making progress, yet it continually was compromised by US Air Strikes and shootings of civilians by the US, who dubbed it all collateral.

You know what that's like?

That's like working at a restaurant doing dishes for 8 hours, where you spend all your time washing them, yet your co-worker who's supposed to be drying them either keeps dropping them and smashing, or sneezing all over the damn things and you having to fix the problem over and over, getting nowhere.

You have one part of the allies doing the PR and communication to the Afghans to earn their trust and acomplish some sort of mission, you have another part of the allies who lay back behind the lines and bask in the sun like the rich preppy kids on vacation, and then you got the other part of the allies going around in a paranoid frenzy, killing everybody in sight and saying "Whoops.... My bad..." and keeps doing it.

"Stop hitting yourself, stop hitting yourself, stop hitting yourself...."

"Hey! US.... knock it off, I'm trying to do work here and trying to get these people to like us."

"What? I didn't do anything?"

*Canada glares for a bit and then turns back to doing their work*

".... Stop hitting yourself, stop hitting yourself, stop hitting yourself...."

$1:

I have the utmost respect for our Canadian Forces, many of my friends are in the CF. Just tiring how many people jump ship at the first sign things could get rough.

And I have family in the CF and I've supported everything they have done.

There's different forms of support.

I for one support our troops by making sure they don't be used for unjustified means and using their sacrafices for ill causes.

I support my family and my troops by pressuring our government to ensure their asses are pulled out of there and to no longer be used as simple political pawns for other countries to push around.

They diserve a hell of a lot more then that.

[Praxius]

PENATRATOR PENATRATOR:

Believe me Prax, as a guy who has had his boots on that ground, backup is welcome, either straight from Iraq or where ever. I have served with many Militaries all over the world, given a choice, I would proudly serve alongside US forces before I would the French or British any day of the week.

Well yes, generally speaking any troop would love to have a few extra people behind them watching their backs, but I was mainly focusing on long term outcomes. If those US troops come into Afghanistan with the same methods as used in Iraq, things are not going to get better.

I hope they learn the ropes quickly.

[PENATRATOR]

I for one support our troops by making sure they don't be used for unjustified means and using their sacrafices for ill causes.

I support my family and my troops by pressuring our government to ensure their asses are pulled out of there and to no longer be used as simple political pawns for other countries to push around.


How do you do this? IS it by way of lobbying? Protest? I am serious, I genuinely would like to know

[Praxius]

PENATRATOR PENATRATOR:

I personally think this comment is offensive to my personal friends that have given their lives bravely serving their country with honour.

I am sure you did not mean it that way, but I suggest you choose your words more carefully.

* Added. While I'd agree with most of the post, I think some of the words and methods you are using are a bit over the top in regards to what is really going on, but that's how you roll.

None of it was in any means to insult any of the troops who have sacraficed their lives and bodies over there. They're not the ones who get to make the decisions. They follow the orders that are given to them.

If anybody is the dumb mook or moron in my above example, it's the politicians who keep them there to please their buddies, rather then looking at the situation objectively and what is best for our troops and our nation.

As I said.... troops find their own justifications for staying over.... I can't argue that against them, nor can anybody else. But when the troops say they need rotation or a break from operations, if the politicians don't listen to them and let their buddy allies call the shots, then the people who pay are our troops.... and for that, those politicians who have their priorities all screwed up are the dumb mooks.

Not once have I directed anything disrespectful towards our troops.

[Praxius]

PENATRATOR PENATRATOR:

How do you do this? IS it by way of lobbying? Protest? I am serious, I genuinely would like to know

Didn't have to be that large, I can read at normal size you know?

The first step is political action by making sure petitions and the numbers come out towards opposition of staying beyond 2011 in any combat form.

Take it to your representatives and demand them to respect Canadian citizen's opinions and views on this matter and to respect our troops and if they do not follow suit, then hit them where it hurts, ie: their jobs/positions/pay/support.

Whatever party plans to remain beyond 2011 get's their arse voted out of power.

And if they all wish to respect their allies' wishes above our own, then there's other levels one can take this.

They made the decision to go to Afghanistan without a solid plan, yet they're also supposed to represent us in this democracy and if the majority of us want them out of there, then they're taken out.

If not, then wtf kind of democracy are they fighting for? What kind of democracy are we living in where the views, wishes and opinions of the citizens only matter when they're convenient to those representing them??

The first stage is to determine how many want them out by 2011.... after that, we can determine how to carry out those decisions. One step at a time.

[PENATRATOR]

Praxius Praxius:

PENATRATOR PENATRATOR:

How do you do this? IS it by way of lobbying? Protest? I am serious, I genuinely would like to know

Didn't have to be that large, I can read at normal size you know?

The first step is political action by making sure petitions and the numbers come out towards opposition of staying beyond 2011 in any combat form.

Take it to your representatives and demand them to respect Canadian citizen's opinions and views on this matter and to respect our troops and if they do not follow suit, then hit them where it hurts, ie: their jobs/positions/pay/support.

Whatever party plans to remain beyond 2011 get's their arse voted out of power.

And if they all wish to respect their allies' wishes above our own, then there's other levels one can take this.

They made the decision to go to Afghanistan without a solid plan, yet they're also supposed to represent us in this democracy and if the majority of us want them out of there, then they're taken out.

If not, then wtf kind of democracy are they fighting for? What kind of democracy are we living in where the views, wishes and opinions of the citizens only matter when they're convenient to those representing them??

Are you actually doing this as you suggested in the previous post, or just planning too?

As for the size, my luck with quoting a post that has already been multi quoted is slim, cut and past with hilite and larger font works for me.

[Praxius]

PENATRATOR PENATRATOR:

Are you actually doing this as you suggested in the previous post, or just planning too?

Well it's not 2011 just yet and there has been no official statement saying they're keeping them there beyond, so there's no need to do this at present. But it's been in the works for me for a number of years now just in case.

They've already extended our mission before, I hardly doubt Canadians would tollerate it being extended again.

$1:

As for the size, my luck with quoting a post that has already been multi quoted is slim, cut and past with hilite and larger font works for me.

Fair enough, lol.

[Akhenaten]

Imo, what's fair or 'just' makes a good point for discussions of duties held between allies but is out of place in terms of what needs to be done to make Afghanistan 'stable' or independent of Pakistan/Iran. The 'Mission' (i.e. what you want to accomplish) doesn't care what's fair. Warzones in general do not work on the principle of what is just or fair, or sometimes even what makes sense. That's "just the nature of my game". I realize you probably know this but sometimes that understanding gets shoved into the peripheral.

$1:

I hardly doubt Canadians would tollerate it being extended again.

I really doubt that's going to make a difference Praxius. Germany, France, Belgium - none of those nations enjoy high popularity rates for the mission -- lower than ours, I think in general even the U.K's approval for the mission is lower than ours, and yet the leaders don't move for the popularity grab by pulling out. Oppositions show their displeasure, but that's what oppositions do - oppose, as soon as they get in they change their mind.

Why? There are more than a couple reasons and I think people need to kick those around in their head a bit and really ask themselves, "If the people don't want to be there - if the mission is so unpopular, then why are these nations continuing to put their forces there and renew commitment to the mission"? One could argue that it's to kiss US ass, and while there may be some truth to that, the real truth is most of them don't really have to,(Australia's not even in NATO and they're working their butt off over there), so again, why?

Even if the next election (or the one after that) was based soley on the question of staying or leaving Afghanistan, I will bet one of my fingers that we'll still be there in one manifestation or another. Again, assuming I'm correct for a moment, why?

I would like to provide a couple of answers:
1. Because they know something the rest of us either don't know, or don't accept, or aren't willing to believe and that's that the Taliban really do pose a threat not only to Afghanistan, not only to the region, but to just about anyone if they are given time to grow and a nation to feed them money, resources and manpower.

2. For the reasons above they know that if they leave now we'll all just be back there within a handful of years with a fresh round of shock and awe and starting all over again with an even tougher fight. Sure there are other 'fires' in the world but we're there now.

3. Most of Afghanistan's heroin goes to Europe. Most of Europes heroin is coming from Afghanistan.

Just my 2 cents.

[Praxius]

The thing is Ak, is that some nations are pulling out.... pulling out before we are at that. So which ones have the right idea?

Those staying or those leaving?

And if any of those nations consider themselves Democratic, then those low approval ratings should mean something, or made to mean something.

I am already aware and knowing that we'll still have forces there beyond 2011, but if it's going to still be mostly Military Combat, then that's not what we were told was the agreement.

Each and every one of the political parties voted in agreement that we will be out by 2011 in the military sense.

What that does is create a deadline.... a set timeline for people to actually plan and get their sh*t together over there. It gives the afghan army and police a time frame on when they're going to be doing things on their own.

If you have no timeline, no deadline.... then this can go on for another 10-20 or even more years with people still doing the exact same things and going no where.

If the government knows something we don't, then too bad.... they best get to informing us and convincing us why we should remain. They have to justify why we are sacraficing our troops over there and if they can't do that, then too bad.

I do not treat the government like a religion, in that I just don't toss my faith at them that they know best. They are just as much human as you and I, which means they can screw up, lie, make mistakes, and everything else that comes with being a human.

If the Taliban come back or the Afghan government chooses to bring them into the government for some level of peace, that's their position to do so, because it's their country, not ours, no matter how much time and resources we put into it.

We went in there, we forced democracy on them and told them how to live, and if they truly have democracy, then they can democratically choose to no long have democracy anymore. They should be able to choose what happens to their country and it's people.... we were supposed to give them that chance, if anything, and we are. Whatever happens afterwards is up to them, not us.

And Heroin?

Since when did this war go from the War on Terrorism to the War on Drugs?

Bring in a market for the opium to mass produce medical supplies to our countries like Morphine, etc. and remove the illegal trade. Then you remove the corruption and drug lords and make them legit businessmen so that their country has a decent resource to substain them.