A single Berlin-class can transport 9,600 cubic meters of fuel, 550 cubic meters of water, 160t of ammunition, 280t of food, 100t of dry stores and 32 containers.
The diesel fuel cargo capacity is 14,590t and the aviation fuel capacity is 400t. The vessel can also carry 1,048t of dry cargo and 1,250t of ammunition.
Not to mention that the JSS is supposed to have some capability to support CF forces deployed ashore. That capability isn't in the design of the Berlin class oilers!
Narrowing the field by Ken Hansen, CFPS Resident Research Fellow on 6 February 2012 .
Word is reaching me that the number of designs under consideration for the AOR-JSS ship is down to only one. Apparently, the Spanish have been told that their Cantabria-class AOR [an enlarged version of the Spanish Patino-class] is no longer in the running. This leaves only the German Berlin-class design.
Personally, I think this means the government�s pressure on the navy to be able to conduct HADR missions has put a premium value on the flexibility and cargo capacity of the Berlin-class ships, even though it is a far cry from what was originally envisioned in the �specs� for the JSS.
Based on the inclusion of the Cantabria-class ships in the competition, I conclude that the navy had hopes of getting a �straight-up� AOR as a way of keeping costs down in the remote chance of getting three ships instead of two out of the deal. This development probably means the money allocated will only go far enough to procure two ships. The lack of an on-call AOR, which will surely happen if only two are procured, will place greater emphasis on the poor endurance characteristics of Canadian warships.
Since the earliest days of internal combustion engines at sea, fuel has been the biggest concern for naval commanders of everything from battle fleets to individual ships. For my article in The Northern Mariner, entitled �Canadian Naval Operations Logistics: Lessons Learned, Lost and Relearned?� [Vol. XX, No. 4 (October 2010): 361-383] I conducted a survey of all Canadian warships over the past 100 years. The results show that the original trend of relying on low endurance warships persists and includes the Halifax-class frigates. The average fuel capacity of all types is .23 tons of fuel per ton of displacement, or 1.21 tons of fuel per foot of length. The Halifax-class has the lowest fuel capacity at .10 tons per ton of displacement and the third-worst at 1.04 tons of fuel per foot of length (Imperial measure is used to make the comparison with older ships simpler). Only the advent of more efficient combined diesel-gas turbine propulsion technologies allows the Halifax-class frigates to achieve higher endurance on a proportionally smaller fuel load. When the circumstances dictate that speed will be required, the frigates will have to resort to their high-speed turbines and their endurance will plummet.
So, the navy�s concern over the lack of an on-call AOR is well founded. Perhaps it is time to start thinking of some different approaches to operational sustainment. Increasing the endurance of future classes of combatants would be a good start. Also, raising the displacement and fuel capacity of the AOPS back to the original specs, firstly, so that they do not suffer fuel shortage problems in the north, but also, secondly, so that they could serve as an alternate source of fuel for the �thirsty� frigates, is an absolutely necessary step. �Cheaping out� on fuel capacity will cause no end of headaches, just as it has done for the navy to this very day.
Ken Hansen joined CFPS as a research fellow in 2010 after four years as the holder of the naval defence fellowship with the centre. He is a Lecturer in the Department of Political Science. Before joining CFPS, he was the Military Co-Chair of the Maritime Studies Programme at Canadian Forces College in Toronto. He retired from the navy in 2009 in the rank of commander after a 32-year career.
Ken is the team leader for the Maritime Security Policy Program�s research theme investigating Piracy, Illegal Migration and Crime at Sea. He is a member of the editorial board for Canadian Naval Review, and serves as the moderator for Broadsides, the on-line discussion forum of the journal. He is also a member of the Science Advisory Committee for the Halifax Regional Marine Institute. His other research interests include maritime security theory, naval operational doctrine with emphasis on planning processes and logistical requirements, as well as joint and interagency doctrine.
Ken completed a Master of Arts Degree in War Studies from the Royal Military College of Canada in 2005, winning the Barry D. Hunt Memorial Prize as the top graduate student. His thesis, �Fuel Endurance and Replenishment at Sea in the Royal Canadian Navy, 1935-1945,� was awarded the Jacques Cartier Prize by the Canadian Nautical Research Society as the year�s best graduate thesis on a nautical subject in Canada. His other literary awards include the John J. McMullin Prize from the United States Naval Academy, the Hannington Millennium Essay Prize and the Bruce S. Oland Prize. He has edited and contributed to two books: Marines: Is an amphibious capability relevant for Canada? and Breaking the Box: The increasing demands of non-combat roles on maritime forces, both published by the Centre for Foreign Policy Studies. He has published articles in Canadian Military Journal, Canadian Naval Review, Embassy Magazine, Frontline Defence, Maritime Affairs, Naval War College Review, TheMarkNews and The Northern Mariner. He has also written book reviews for Canadian Naval Review, Maritime Affairs, The International Journal of Maritime History and The Northern Mariner.
The parliamentary budget officer warned earlier this year that the $2.6 billion set aside for two or three supply ships was too little, and the budget for the project should be $4.13 billion.
The Conservative government has refuted that estimate, saying it will be able to execute the replacements within its budget. It also emphasized Sunday that going with the existing German model of vessel will allow them to develop the ships with greater budgetary certainty.
That's the problem right there - the government is making the budget the key factor, not operational needs. The Conservatives are doing defence on the cheap just like the Liberals did in the 90s.
The parliamentary budget officer warned earlier this year that the $2.6 billion set aside for two or three supply ships was too little, and the budget for the project should be $4.13 billion.
The Conservative government has refuted that estimate, saying it will be able to execute the replacements within its budget. It also emphasized Sunday that going with the existing German model of vessel will allow them to develop the ships with greater budgetary certainty.
That's the problem right there - the government is making the budget the key factor, not operational needs. The Conservatives are doing defence on the cheap just like the Liberals did in the 90s.
"Unsound" said This government gets more disappointing by the day. I'm running out of ideas on where to park my vote next election.
Eventually you'll get to a point where you see that government really doesn't change anything. Politicians don't innovate anything. They don't improve our lives. Technicians do! Technology ftw.
"drawson" said This government gets more disappointing by the day. I'm running out of ideas on where to park my vote next election.
Eventually you'll get to a point where you see that government really doesn't change anything. Politicians don't innovate anything. They don't improve our lives. Technicians do! Technology ftw.
That makes no sense unless you assume technicians and technology operate in a social management vacuum.
I say take what you can get. It sucks but the Navy always plays third fiddle in the pecking order of the CF, so either bite the bullet or be prepared to start pulling miracles out of your ass to keep what you've got seaworthy.
"Jonny_C" said Selecting a current German design probably means getting the ships built faster. And they'll still be built in Canada.
Get 'em built.
It will. The issue will be that all the money and desires spent on increased capability is wasted. We get an off the shelf tanker design and nothing g more.
"QBall" said I say take what you can get. It sucks but the Navy always plays third fiddle in the pecking order of the CF, so either bite the bullet or be prepared to start pulling miracles out of your ass to keep what you've got seaworthy.
Because of our geography and our geographical position, it really doesn't make sense for a maritime nation such as ours, with thousands of kilometers of coastline, to skimp on the navy.
"Gunnair" said Selecting a current German design probably means getting the ships built faster. And they'll still be built in Canada.
Get 'em built.
It will. The issue will be that all the money and desires spent on increased capability is wasted. We get an off the shelf tanker design and nothing g more.
Great, but years were wasted over this.
We seem to be good at fiddling and fart-arsing around.
Now where are my Picard facepalm pics...
http://www.naval-technology.com/project ... y-vessels/
A single Berlin-class can transport 9,600 cubic meters of fuel, 550 cubic meters of water, 160t of ammunition, 280t of food, 100t of dry stores and 32 containers.
Protecteur Class
http://www.naval-technology.com/project ... eur-class/
The diesel fuel cargo capacity is 14,590t and the aviation fuel capacity is 400t. The vessel can also carry 1,048t of dry cargo and 1,250t of ammunition.
Not to mention that the JSS is supposed to have some capability to support CF forces deployed ashore. That capability isn't in the design of the Berlin class oilers!
Canada Fail.
http://www.navalreview.ca/2012/02/narrowing-the-field/
by Ken Hansen, CFPS Resident Research Fellow on 6 February 2012 .
Word is reaching me that the number of designs under consideration for the AOR-JSS ship is down to only one. Apparently, the Spanish have been told that their Cantabria-class AOR [an enlarged version of the Spanish Patino-class] is no longer in the running. This leaves only the German Berlin-class design.
Personally, I think this means the government�s pressure on the navy to be able to conduct HADR missions has put a premium value on the flexibility and cargo capacity of the Berlin-class ships, even though it is a far cry from what was originally envisioned in the �specs� for the JSS.
Based on the inclusion of the Cantabria-class ships in the competition, I conclude that the navy had hopes of getting a �straight-up� AOR as a way of keeping costs down in the remote chance of getting three ships instead of two out of the deal. This development probably means the money allocated will only go far enough to procure two ships. The lack of an on-call AOR, which will surely happen if only two are procured, will place greater emphasis on the poor endurance characteristics of Canadian warships.
Since the earliest days of internal combustion engines at sea, fuel has been the biggest concern for naval commanders of everything from battle fleets to individual ships. For my article in The Northern Mariner, entitled �Canadian Naval Operations Logistics: Lessons Learned, Lost and Relearned?� [Vol. XX, No. 4 (October 2010): 361-383] I conducted a survey of all Canadian warships over the past 100 years. The results show that the original trend of relying on low endurance warships persists and includes the Halifax-class frigates. The average fuel capacity of all types is .23 tons of fuel per ton of displacement, or 1.21 tons of fuel per foot of length. The Halifax-class has the lowest fuel capacity at .10 tons per ton of displacement and the third-worst at 1.04 tons of fuel per foot of length (Imperial measure is used to make the comparison with older ships simpler). Only the advent of more efficient combined diesel-gas turbine propulsion technologies allows the Halifax-class frigates to achieve higher endurance on a proportionally smaller fuel load. When the circumstances dictate that speed will be required, the frigates will have to resort to their high-speed turbines and their endurance will plummet.
So, the navy�s concern over the lack of an on-call AOR is well founded. Perhaps it is time to start thinking of some different approaches to operational sustainment. Increasing the endurance of future classes of combatants would be a good start. Also, raising the displacement and fuel capacity of the AOPS back to the original specs, firstly, so that they do not suffer fuel shortage problems in the north, but also, secondly, so that they could serve as an alternate source of fuel for the �thirsty� frigates, is an absolutely necessary step. �Cheaping out� on fuel capacity will cause no end of headaches, just as it has done for the navy to this very day.
Credentials of the author
http://www.dal.ca/dept/cfps/fellows/hansen.html
Ken is the team leader for the Maritime Security Policy Program�s research theme investigating Piracy, Illegal Migration and Crime at Sea. He is a member of the editorial board for Canadian Naval Review, and serves as the moderator for Broadsides, the on-line discussion forum of the journal. He is also a member of the Science Advisory Committee for the Halifax Regional Marine Institute. His other research interests include maritime security theory, naval operational doctrine with emphasis on planning processes and logistical requirements, as well as joint and interagency doctrine.
Ken completed a Master of Arts Degree in War Studies from the Royal Military College of Canada in 2005, winning the Barry D. Hunt Memorial Prize as the top graduate student. His thesis, �Fuel Endurance and Replenishment at Sea in the Royal Canadian Navy, 1935-1945,� was awarded the Jacques Cartier Prize by the Canadian Nautical Research Society as the year�s best graduate thesis on a nautical subject in Canada. His other literary awards include the John J. McMullin Prize from the United States Naval Academy, the Hannington Millennium Essay Prize and the Bruce S. Oland Prize. He has edited and contributed to two books: Marines: Is an amphibious capability relevant for Canada? and Breaking the Box: The increasing demands of non-combat roles on maritime forces, both published by the Centre for Foreign Policy Studies. He has published articles in Canadian Military Journal, Canadian Naval Review, Embassy Magazine, Frontline Defence, Maritime Affairs, Naval War College Review, TheMarkNews and The Northern Mariner. He has also written book reviews for Canadian Naval Review, Maritime Affairs, The International Journal of Maritime History and The Northern Mariner.
The Conservative government has refuted that estimate, saying it will be able to execute the replacements within its budget. It also emphasized Sunday that going with the existing German model of vessel will allow them to develop the ships with greater budgetary certainty.
That's the problem right there - the government is making the budget the key factor, not operational needs. The Conservatives are doing defence on the cheap just like the Liberals did in the 90s.
The Conservative government has refuted that estimate, saying it will be able to execute the replacements within its budget. It also emphasized Sunday that going with the existing German model of vessel will allow them to develop the ships with greater budgetary certainty.
That's the problem right there - the government is making the budget the key factor, not operational needs. The Conservatives are doing defence on the cheap just like the Liberals did in the 90s.
Yep, but they love the CAF.
Don't forget that.
This government gets more disappointing by the day. I'm running out of ideas on where to park my vote next election.
Eventually you'll get to a point where you see that government really doesn't change anything.
This government gets more disappointing by the day. I'm running out of ideas on where to park my vote next election.
Eventually you'll get to a point where you see that government really doesn't change anything.
That makes no sense unless you assume technicians and technology operate in a social management vacuum.
Get 'em built.
Selecting a current German design probably means getting the ships built faster. And they'll still be built in Canada.
Get 'em built.
It will. The issue will be that all the money and desires spent on increased capability is wasted. We get an off the shelf tanker design and nothing g more.
Great, but years were wasted over this.
I say take what you can get. It sucks but the Navy always plays third fiddle in the pecking order of the CF, so either bite the bullet or be prepared to start pulling miracles out of your ass to keep what you've got seaworthy.
Because of our geography and our geographical position, it really doesn't make sense for a maritime nation such as ours, with thousands of kilometers of coastline, to skimp on the navy.
We have need of an army least of all.
Selecting a current German design probably means getting the ships built faster. And they'll still be built in Canada.
Get 'em built.
It will. The issue will be that all the money and desires spent on increased capability is wasted. We get an off the shelf tanker design and nothing g more.
Great, but years were wasted over this.
We seem to be good at fiddling and fart-arsing around.